Simon and Tom's Weekly Review 17-11-2024

[00:00:00] Welcome to Crime Time Inc, our daily podcast where we bring a true crime story every single day of the week with an overview and review with Tom Wood and myself every Sunday.

[00:00:11] And here's today's episode.

[00:00:22] Good afternoon Tom, how are you my friend?

[00:00:25] I'm very well, thank you Simon. You sounded a wee bit hoarse this afternoon. Are you well enough? Have you caught a cold there in the sunny west?

[00:00:32] I was in the sunny south. I was down in Alicante for the weekend with a walking football team and I'm a bit hoarse from shouting because as you would guess I'm a supporter. I was injured.

[00:00:43] I see. You were shouting instructions from the sidelines.

[00:00:45] Yeah, something like that.

[00:00:46] And giving guidance to people about what to do right.

[00:00:49] Exactly. Tom, you read that like a book. And I was also helping the referees come to the right decisions as always.

[00:00:58] So it was great fun and we came back with the silverware. We had to pay an extra £15 baggage on the way back because we had the trophy with us but that's the price you pay us and say.

[00:01:08] Is that right? I'm very surprised that's not sitting beside you.

[00:01:12] There's no room.

[00:01:14] Well done anyway, that's great news.

[00:01:17] Another star for the strip.

[00:01:18] But what an interesting deep dive we've done this week. I mean it's been absolutely fantastic.

[00:01:25] Yeah.

[00:01:25] We've got Jack the Ripper, we've got Fred and Rosemary West and John Christie, the Rillington Place murderer.

[00:01:32] Some of these crimes, in fact all of these crimes, have actually had a profound effect on the way we investigate serious crime in their different ways.

[00:01:42] And the deep dive team have done us a real service this week. They've been super and I'm looking forward to talking about them.

[00:01:48] The first one they came up with I had never heard of, Tom, I don't know if you had, the dating game killer, this guy that was on the game show, Rodney Alcala.

[00:01:57] I had never heard of it, although now that I've seen it on YouTube and things like that, he was a bit of a lad, wasn't he?

[00:02:03] And he really demonstrated what comes up time and time again here in Crown Time Inc.

[00:02:08] is that criminals, no matter how vicious, how evil they are, they don't have a stamp on their head to say so.

[00:02:16] In fact, the very worst of them are sometimes the very most charming of them.

[00:02:23] Well, that's right and that's a lesson we learned with Angus Sinclair, the world's end killer, that we've spoken about and I've written about.

[00:02:29] I had heard of Alcala and it always struck me that he was a criminal ahead of his time because he was into the dating game exploitation long before social media was as powerful as it is today.

[00:02:42] When you look at the dangers online now, you see that people like Alcala gives people like him charismatic people, confidence tricksters, deadly, but look at the part.

[00:02:58] The new social media world gives these people an immense range of victims to pick up on.

[00:03:05] I thought Alcala was really a warning about what we'll see a lot more of.

[00:03:11] A thing that came out of it again was forensics, Tom.

[00:03:14] It probably will come out in every single episode of Crown Time Inc. that we do was the cold case profile of him.

[00:03:21] And it was interesting that he was sentenced to death and then he stood trial for another two murders that were cold cases from decades before,

[00:03:30] but DNA evidence had secured convictions against him.

[00:03:34] And although he was on death row, he was sentenced to a further 25 years plus sentence, which I thought was interesting.

[00:03:42] But the forensics, every time it's about good groundwork at the locus, isn't it?

[00:03:48] It's the securing of that evidence.

[00:03:50] Well, that's right.

[00:03:51] Again, it's the lessons of the world end.

[00:03:53] You take the samples and then you retain them.

[00:03:56] And it's the manner in which you retain them which allows for future examination.

[00:04:02] And that was a classic case, an absolute classic case.

[00:04:04] And as you say, we talk about this regularly because it's so important.

[00:04:09] With Alcala, he defended himself.

[00:04:11] He had this arrogance about him.

[00:04:13] It's as if these guys can't see what they really are.

[00:04:16] There's a blinker.

[00:04:18] He pled guilty to the two murders through New York.

[00:04:21] Tom, the final part of that I wanted to point out for our listeners was the photographs he took.

[00:04:27] When he was arrested, the police seized hundreds of photographs of females.

[00:04:32] Some of them were identified as victims retrospectively, but there are still hundreds.

[00:04:38] And there's a website with these pictures on it.

[00:04:40] I thought it might be an opportunity for Count Time Inc. to help that process because we've got a lot of American listeners now.

[00:04:47] Probably half of our listeners are across the water.

[00:04:49] So I wanted to maybe talk to you about putting that up on our website.

[00:04:54] Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

[00:04:56] I was aware of that database.

[00:04:58] And the fact is that there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of these pictures which are yet to be identified.

[00:05:04] We don't know who these people are or whether they're alive or well.

[00:05:09] We don't know whether Alcala got them through his various networks or whether, in fact, he took the photographs himself.

[00:05:16] And it's absolutely chilling.

[00:05:18] It's like, you remember I told you when we were doing the Robert Black case, when we searched his house, we came across hundreds and hundreds of pieces of children's clothing.

[00:05:28] You remember that?

[00:05:28] Yes, I do.

[00:05:29] And we never identified, Simon, where all these came from.

[00:05:33] Now, they could have been stolen off the washing line, as some sexual deviants will do.

[00:05:37] But we have no idea where all these came from and whether they might belong to some victims of crime.

[00:05:44] It's a chilling thing when you see a thing like that.

[00:05:47] But the database is a good idea.

[00:05:48] I'll speak to the team behind the scenes and see if they can get some links up to it.

[00:05:53] Our listeners can go onto our web page and click the link and be able to see these photographs.

[00:05:59] You just never know.

[00:06:00] Yeah.

[00:06:00] Good, Tom.

[00:06:01] Thanks to our research team for coming up with that.

[00:06:04] That was a great case.

[00:06:06] And as you say, it gives us a chance to go into the background of it.

[00:06:09] The second case was John Christie.

[00:06:11] And I know that you liked this episode.

[00:06:14] Did you have some personal knowledge of Christie?

[00:06:17] No, not at all.

[00:06:18] And Christie was convicted just post-war.

[00:06:21] But I read the book, 10 Rillington Place.

[00:06:24] And I remember watching the film of 10 Rillington Place.

[00:06:27] So I was interested in the case for a number of reasons.

[00:06:30] The most important thing was the wrongful execution of Timothy Evans.

[00:06:34] Timothy Evans was the young lodger.

[00:06:36] He was a simple-minded man who took up lodgings with John Christie at 10 Rillington Place,

[00:06:43] along with his pregnant wife, Beryl Christie.

[00:06:45] The first thing that happened was that Timothy Evans turned himself into a police station and claimed that he'd murdered Beryl.

[00:06:55] And the police accepted this.

[00:06:57] Well, why wouldn't you?

[00:06:58] And eventually he was convicted and hanged.

[00:07:01] And of course, it later turned out that Timothy Evans probably wasn't involved at all in the murder of Beryl.

[00:07:08] It had been Christie.

[00:07:09] Beryl had been pregnant.

[00:07:11] They couldn't afford the baby.

[00:07:12] And Christie had offered to carry out an abortion on Beryl.

[00:07:18] Timothy Evans, being the simple-minded soul that he was, thought that because she'd died, he was responsible for the death of his wife.

[00:07:25] In fact, Christie had murdered her, concealed her body and persuaded Timothy Evans, who, as I say, was a simpleton, that he had committed the crime.

[00:07:35] So a number of things arose from that.

[00:07:37] One was the old Chalmers case, which stated cases about dealing with people who do not have mental capacity.

[00:07:44] But the other one, of course, was it gave a tremendous boost to the people who were trying to get the death penalty struck from the records.

[00:07:53] You'll remember that we spoke about a hero of mine, Violet van der Elst, the great death penalty campaigner.

[00:07:59] Well, the Timothy Evans case was one that she took up with great vigour.

[00:08:04] And the wrongful execution of Timothy Evans was hugely influential in the cessation of the death penalty in England and Wales.

[00:08:14] It was a very powerful argument.

[00:08:16] If he'd been given life imprisonment, the wrongful conviction could have been righted and he could be let out.

[00:08:21] As it was, he was hanged and there was no going back.

[00:08:23] The Timothy Evans case and the John Christie case is hugely important.

[00:08:28] When Timothy Evans had confessed, the police just took it.

[00:08:34] They accepted John Christie's story because he'd been a special constable during the war.

[00:08:38] There was no due diligence done at all.

[00:08:41] Nobody actually challenged the hypothesis.

[00:08:44] Nobody said, hang on a minute, let's just make sure.

[00:08:47] Christie had buried the bodies under his kitchen wall.

[00:08:50] The house was stinking of putrefied corpses.

[00:08:53] It wouldn't have taken very much in the way of a search to find it out.

[00:08:57] But they didn't.

[00:08:57] There's a lot of learning from that case.

[00:08:59] Do you think even I might have solved that one if I'd walked into the house, John?

[00:09:04] Simon, I think you and your boys from the West could have solved that case.

[00:09:07] I really do.

[00:09:08] That's how obvious it was.

[00:09:10] That's how obvious it was.

[00:09:11] If you'd been on your day and if your own personal hygiene had been a high of a standard, you'd have been fine.

[00:09:18] You'd have been OK.

[00:09:19] Listen, there's no way I'm playing the straight man here, OK?

[00:09:22] Just get that right.

[00:09:23] Tom, I had an old DI who's no longer with us, Roddy.

[00:09:28] And he sat me down one day and I said to him, but these guys are lying.

[00:09:32] I want to do this and I want to do that.

[00:09:35] And he said just because someone's lying doesn't mean that they're guilty.

[00:09:39] People lie for a variety of reasons.

[00:09:41] I've read that somewhere since from some famous judge.

[00:09:44] And the same thing works the other way around.

[00:09:46] People confess and admit things for a variety of reasons that we'll never be able to fathom.

[00:09:52] So a confession on its own is not enough to convict someone under Scots law.

[00:09:58] It has to be corroborated.

[00:09:59] It has to be stood up by the evidence around about it.

[00:10:02] So you can't just take a confession and hang someone.

[00:10:05] No, and of course, this is one of the great things about corroboration.

[00:10:08] And that's why I've written a lot about corroboration and they need to retain corroboration.

[00:10:13] There has been a move.

[00:10:15] Fortunately, it's now gone away to remove corroboration in some rape cases.

[00:10:19] And I'm very pleased that they have decided not to go down that road because that was surely going to end in miscarriage of justice.

[00:10:27] Just to finish up with John Christie, again, the underlying tone was the violence against Ruman.

[00:10:34] And that domestic violence element feeds through a lot of these serious murder cases, Tom and Sheo killers, as we would call them.

[00:10:42] Tom, something I don't think I've asked you, despite all the times that this comes up during our podcasts, is what your view is of capital punishment.

[00:10:52] I have not seen any evidence that capital punishment works as a deterrent.

[00:10:58] The vast majority of crimes are carried out spontaneously.

[00:11:03] And I've not yet seen compelling evidence that would prevent crime.

[00:11:09] So, all right, so if it doesn't prevent crime, then what is it there to do?

[00:11:14] It's, I mean, obviously it would be the cheaper of the options because it means an awful lot of people spending long, long times in imprisonment now, 40, 50 years at enormous cost.

[00:11:24] But come on, we're a civilised society.

[00:11:27] I think we've moved on from capital punishment.

[00:11:29] I don't think we're ever going to go back anyway.

[00:11:33] For me, it's an outdated argument and I don't see any benefit from it.

[00:11:38] Thanks, Tom.

[00:11:39] That's interesting.

[00:11:41] Moving on from John Christie, and I think this is quite an interesting transition to the case of Madeline Smith because it brings up the old argument about the not proven verdict.

[00:11:52] And that really feeds into the previous case with capital punishment, that you've only got the two choices, guilty or not guilty.

[00:12:01] And Scots law gives us that middle option, which most people say, what's the point of it?

[00:12:06] But I think it gives us another option that can tell us an awful lot about the case.

[00:12:13] What's your thoughts on it, Tom?

[00:12:14] I agree with you in a way, but not proven is disappearing and it's going to be struck off the register.

[00:12:21] There is an argument, which I think is right, that there should be two verdicts, proven or not proven.

[00:12:28] This business of guilt is a kind of subjective thing.

[00:12:31] The case should be proven beyond all reasonable doubt or not.

[00:12:36] So I think that's the way to go forward.

[00:12:39] We've spoken about Madeline Smith before.

[00:12:41] It was obviously a landmark case for all sorts of reasons.

[00:12:44] But what's interesting to me about the Madeline Smith case and a lot of cases from that time is the use of poisons.

[00:12:51] We do not see poisons now used in many murders, or at least we don't think we do.

[00:12:58] But when you look at the number of drug deaths there are, I often wondered just how many murders we were writing off as being drug deaths.

[00:13:09] I'm still not convinced that our systems are such that we're not accepting prima facie, the fact that somebody's taken an overdose rather than look longer and deeper, because there are so many of them.

[00:13:24] You're right about Madeline Smith.

[00:13:25] We actually covered it with Donnie McIntyre when he was our guest and spoke to us about the murder mile in Glasgow.

[00:13:32] Yeah.

[00:13:32] Which you can believe there was only a mile that we commit all our murders in here in Glasgow.

[00:13:38] But Madeline was an interesting case because of the clash of class that it brought into it.

[00:13:44] She came from a very wealthy family and he was working class.

[00:13:48] It was obviously an affair that she was having outwith the knowledge.

[00:13:53] What struck me today was that there was no real inquiry done.

[00:13:57] Correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, because you're the historian, obviously.

[00:14:00] Were the police not really at the behest of the upper classes in those days?

[00:14:05] Did they not go in the workman's entrance when they were there to make an inquiry and get a replay of soup maybe from the cook?

[00:14:12] And they would be reluctant to dig into these things too much?

[00:14:17] Well, I suppose there was an element of that.

[00:14:19] Although, when you look at some of the other notable cases, the Birkin Hare is a very good example,

[00:14:24] where the detectives went straight to the door and searched the house of one of the most eminent surgeons in the city of Edinburgh to recover body parts.

[00:14:33] There's conflicting evidence, but I think we were a much more class-ridden society than we are today.

[00:14:39] And so I think a view would be taken about, here's this middle-class lady living very well.

[00:14:45] How could she possibly descend to this sort of criminal activity?

[00:14:49] My view on looking at the cases, she was lucky to get away with it.

[00:14:53] She was very lucky to get a not proven.

[00:14:55] Well, maybe another way of looking at it, because of her status and her family and the money that her family had access to,

[00:15:03] the not proven verdict, the bar is maybe a bit lower in those cases.

[00:15:08] For someone working class, off the streets, or unemployed, or whatever it might be, the bar would be lower for a guilty plea.

[00:15:16] And the not proven verdict was a bit of a get-out cause there.

[00:15:20] Well, I think there's no doubt that she and her family would be able to afford the very best of defence advocates.

[00:15:25] There's no question about that.

[00:15:27] I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that the whole of the judicial system is smeared by that.

[00:15:34] I just think there was sufficient doubt.

[00:15:35] Although, when you look at the evidence, I mean, she went out and bought the poison.

[00:15:39] It was pretty conclusive.

[00:15:41] You and your evidence, Tom, you always insist on this evidence.

[00:15:46] This is a new thing to me, remember.

[00:15:48] I know, I know that, Simon.

[00:15:50] I know, and I know it's late in the day for you.

[00:15:52] I understand that.

[00:15:53] But really, it's the way to go.

[00:15:56] We were the research team to have a real look at this evidence thing for me.

[00:16:03] And Madeleine Smith, yeah, and the Mother of Myrtle.

[00:16:06] So it was different times, different times.

[00:16:08] Much more up-to-date and within our time, if you like, is the incredible story of Fred and Rose West.

[00:16:17] Especially given that Fred, and it's something when we recover again, because it's such a big case, is that Fred worked up here as well.

[00:16:25] He had an ice cream van in the south side of Glasgow.

[00:16:27] There's lots of stories and missing persons in the west of Scotland that Fred might have.

[00:16:33] We'll never know now, of course, because he took his own life.

[00:16:36] Did you have much to do with the West inquiry or anything like that?

[00:16:40] Tom, did it ever cross your desk?

[00:16:41] No, it didn't.

[00:16:43] But funnily enough, the officer in charge of the SIO, Senior Investigating Officer for the Fred West inquiry, was my advisor.

[00:16:52] He was part of the advisory group for the World's End Murder investigation.

[00:16:57] What they did at that time, it's a very good system, I've got to say, is they pulled together the National Crime Faculty, doesn't exist any longer.

[00:17:06] They pulled together an advisory group of experts and psychologists and criminologists and all the rest of it.

[00:17:14] And they also had an SIO advisor.

[00:17:16] My SIO advisor was the SIO on the thread in Rosemary West.

[00:17:20] What a superman he was and what great advice he gave me.

[00:17:27] It was a very interesting case.

[00:17:28] Two things strike me about the Fred and Rosemary West thing is that this very unusual combination where you've got a man and a woman involved in sexual offences.

[00:17:39] Very unusual.

[00:17:40] But also, of course, very disarming for the victims.

[00:17:45] Because it was Rosemary West that used to draw these young waifs and strays, basically.

[00:17:52] People who were hitchhiking up and down the country used to draw them in and reassure them and give them comfort.

[00:17:58] And before Fred attacked them.

[00:18:01] It's a bit like Myra Hindley and Ian Brady.

[00:18:04] It was that same thing.

[00:18:05] And it's a very, very unusual but a very, very dangerous combination when you get a man and a woman operating like that.

[00:18:13] Very unusual for a woman to be involved in that.

[00:18:16] But Rosemary West had a lot of secrets to tell.

[00:18:19] Because speaking to the old SIO, he was never convinced that there weren't a lot more victims to Fred and Rosemary.

[00:18:26] The other interesting thing for me in this case was that the fact that the victims were the waifs and strays.

[00:18:33] The victims were solitary girls hitchhiking up and down the country.

[00:18:37] That they went unreported.

[00:18:39] That they went unchampioned.

[00:18:42] That nobody knew who they were and nobody knew whether they were alive or dead.

[00:18:46] And this whole business about vulnerable missing persons and people living like that.

[00:18:51] People living almost nomadic lives.

[00:18:53] It struck me as being particularly poignant in this case.

[00:18:56] It really did.

[00:18:57] It's something that comes up regularly, Tom.

[00:18:59] And I thought we had covered it because we did a special episode about missing persons.

[00:19:04] And you gave us some great insight.

[00:19:06] And you were very honest about it.

[00:19:09] Somebody said to me just the other day about the Alcala case that we spoke about a few minutes ago.

[00:19:14] That these pictures, these hundreds of females that are missing, how can that be?

[00:19:19] And it's worth reiterating that the systems aren't really designed to cope with that over large geographic spaces like that.

[00:19:31] That's right.

[00:19:32] And if it's bad here, I mean, out in the States it's incredible.

[00:19:34] I remember when I was working out there hearing that in some of these enormous western states,

[00:19:41] Arizona and places like that, once the winter thaws came and the snow receded,

[00:19:48] they would find dozens of skeletal remains just dumped beside the highways in these vast desert roads.

[00:19:58] And they would have no idea who they were at all.

[00:20:01] Different now with DNA, of course.

[00:20:03] But they had a huge problem with missing persons there to the extent that they hatched in a very, very good scheme in my view.

[00:20:11] They used to put details of missing persons on milk cartons.

[00:20:17] So if you bought a milk carton, and of course that was a sort of nationwide, milk went all over the place,

[00:20:21] you would get a little picture of this person saying missing in a description just in case it rang any bells.

[00:20:27] But I think I'm right in saying that at one point in time in the United States,

[00:20:33] there were 3,000 people per year went missing without trace and were never recovered.

[00:20:39] And of course that's the story of the famous Green River case.

[00:20:42] Yes.

[00:20:43] Where you had dozens of young women abducted and murdered.

[00:20:47] And various other cases where you have sex workers and people like that who are just rootless people going about and who fall victim.

[00:20:54] And Fred and Rosemary West were very good examples in our country of that.

[00:21:00] They also murdered their own daughter.

[00:21:02] Was it Fred's daughter?

[00:21:03] Her stepdaughter, Rosa's stepdaughter that they murdered as well?

[00:21:07] Yes, they were completely amoral.

[00:21:10] I mean, it was a case of, you know, if you were going to give the go away, then you ended up under the foundations.

[00:21:17] Funnily enough, I've got a very slight personal connection.

[00:21:21] My cousin is a builder down in Gloucestershire on my father's side of the family.

[00:21:26] And he knew Fred West.

[00:21:29] And actually said the thing about Fred West was he was a very good worker.

[00:21:33] If Fred West said he'd come along and build a foundation for a conservatory, he'd do it in double quick time.

[00:21:39] And I said, that's all very well, but what's under the foundations?

[00:21:45] Something that's just struck me, Tom, you told us a personal story about a death that you went to where a kiddie had fallen into a pond.

[00:21:54] Yeah.

[00:21:54] And you told us that when you learned that you were going to be a grandfather for the first time, you had your pond filled in in the garden.

[00:22:02] That's right. Instantly.

[00:22:03] Is this starting to ring any bells anywhere?

[00:22:07] You know what, that's right.

[00:22:10] Is it still filled out the back?

[00:22:12] Yes, it's still filled in.

[00:22:13] And, Simon, you're very welcome. Come and dig it up.

[00:22:18] You could maybe plant some potatoes when you're about it.

[00:22:23] I remember searching for the exposers or fry arms or something out in the field and there was all the CID that were there.

[00:22:29] And somebody called up for the support unit to come and help us.

[00:22:34] And somebody delivered shovels.

[00:22:36] About a dozen shovels came out of the back of a panda.

[00:22:39] And the DI said, where's the extensions?

[00:22:43] And the cop said, what extensions?

[00:22:46] It's just shovels.

[00:22:47] He says, no, the uniforms to work them.

[00:22:50] LAUGHTER

[00:22:55] Nobody listens to this, Tom, we're not ready.

[00:22:58] LAUGHTER

[00:22:59] So what about West, in the West, in the West of Scotland?

[00:23:02] Were you aware of that connection, that he had a business here?

[00:23:06] Yes, it was. But when you look at the pattern of his offending, it was always with Rosemary.

[00:23:09] That was the connection.

[00:23:10] Now, I'm not saying he didn't offend before.

[00:23:12] But there was no evidence to tie him to anything at the time.

[00:23:16] And I'm sure work was done on that.

[00:23:18] Because Fred and Rosemary West were thoroughly investigated.

[00:23:21] There are still dozens of missing persons.

[00:23:24] And sometimes some of these young people have never been reported missing

[00:23:29] because nobody cared enough about them to actually check up whether they were living or dead.

[00:23:35] It's tragic.

[00:23:36] The way we deal with missing persons now is an awful lot better.

[00:23:40] We've got a missing persons register and this criterion for vulnerable missing persons, etc., etc.

[00:23:45] But in our day, frankly, it was a bit ramshackle.

[00:23:50] And at the end of the day, no matter how good our systems are, no matter how good the database,

[00:23:55] it relies on people reporting these things.

[00:23:58] It relies on information coming in in the first place.

[00:24:02] That's right.

[00:24:03] What would you say to someone who lived on a street and hadn't seen someone for a while or was worried?

[00:24:10] Get in touch with the police. There's no problem, is there?

[00:24:13] No, no. You absolutely get in touch with the police.

[00:24:15] I mean, there's been some tragedies. We had a tragedy here a couple of years ago in a flat in the middle of Edinburgh,

[00:24:20] a tenement where an old lady had lain dead for something like two or three years.

[00:24:24] Her pension kept getting paid into her bank account and her standing orders kept getting paid.

[00:24:30] So her electricity was paid and her taxes were paid.

[00:24:34] The rest of the stair were mainly rental flats.

[00:24:38] Young people coming and going.

[00:24:39] And there was nobody to knock on the door, nobody to report that old Mrs Smith hadn't been seen.

[00:24:45] That's a tragedy and a very poor reflection on our society today, in my view.

[00:24:50] Every street needs a couple of curtain twitchers, Tom.

[00:24:53] Are you the curtain twitcher on your street?

[00:24:55] No, I'm not, but I agree with you.

[00:24:57] Where I was brought up in Stockbridge in Edinburgh,

[00:24:59] there was a lady who spent all her time just looking out the window.

[00:25:04] Mrs Beattie, she was, and she had a cushion on the windowsill and she just sat there day and night looking out the window.

[00:25:12] And she saw everything.

[00:25:15] And if you erred slightly, then your mother and father would know.

[00:25:19] It was fantastic.

[00:25:20] And of course, these people were the, we were talking about, these people who were contacts of the police,

[00:25:26] who were police informants but didn't know they were.

[00:25:28] Yeah.

[00:25:29] They were actually just folk in the neighbourhood who kept a sharp eye.

[00:25:33] Yeah.

[00:25:33] But if there's anything going on in our street, old Mrs Beattie knew about it, you can guarantee.

[00:25:38] They were pre-CCTV.

[00:25:41] Absolutely.

[00:25:42] And all the better for it.

[00:25:43] And Neighbourhood Watch and all that jazz.

[00:25:45] And there were always a wealth of knowledge.

[00:25:47] That was your first port of call in any door-to-door inquiry, wasn't it?

[00:25:50] That's it.

[00:25:51] You had to listen to all the other stuff as well.

[00:25:54] Everybody's business.

[00:25:55] Because you knew everybody's business.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:58] Tom, just to finish up with Fred West.

[00:26:00] Again, there's this background of a big family.

[00:26:03] I think he was one of eight.

[00:26:04] I think he was abused.

[00:26:06] All the usual traits and violence against rumour.

[00:26:09] And he was done for assault when he was a youngster.

[00:26:11] So all the traits are there, aren't they?

[00:26:14] Yep.

[00:26:15] All the traits are there.

[00:26:16] But before they become relevant, you've got to catch them.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:21] Yeah.

[00:26:22] So, on to your case more, this is more your time than mine, the Whitechapel murders.

[00:26:30] Well, the Whitechapel murders, the original Jack the Ripper, in my view, have defined so

[00:26:38] much to do with the media perception and the public perception of serial killers.

[00:26:43] The Whitechapel murders were not the first, of course, because exactly 60 years before the

[00:26:50] Whitechapel murders were the Burkin Hare killings that were the first serial killings

[00:26:56] of the 19th century, which we've discussed at length.

[00:26:59] But the difference was, in Whitechapel, the print media was absolutely at its zenith.

[00:27:05] There were newspapers putting out daily news sheets full of lurid stories about the victims

[00:27:13] of Jack the Ripper, the Whitechapel murderer.

[00:27:17] Now, there's a couple of interesting things about it.

[00:27:19] The other thing is that the systems developed for investigating the Whitechapel murder actually

[00:27:24] prevailed right through to our time because I've actually seen in the Black Museum at Scotland

[00:27:30] Yard, the card index system they used to administer the search for the Whitechapel murderer.

[00:27:38] And it's very little different from the card index systems that you and I use, Simon.

[00:27:44] A hundred years later, you would recognise it.

[00:27:48] Wow.

[00:27:48] I think they missed a trick.

[00:27:50] There have been so many theories and so many crackpot theories about Jack the Ripper and

[00:27:54] the Whitechapel murders.

[00:27:56] And they're still writing that no crime has been more written about than the Whitechapel

[00:28:02] murders.

[00:28:02] And books are still coming out with one crackpot theory after another.

[00:28:08] But I've always thought there was a key to the whole of the Whitechapel murders, and

[00:28:14] that was syphilis.

[00:28:16] If you look, and I've done a lot of studies of the sex industry in and about Edinburgh,

[00:28:21] where I live.

[00:28:22] And what's very interesting is to see the patterns.

[00:28:25] The syphilis, the venereal disease, it comes in waves.

[00:28:29] It's always there, but it's like heroin.

[00:28:31] It comes in waves.

[00:28:32] And there was a very serious outbreak in the mid to late 1800s.

[00:28:38] And it struck me as very relevant that a lot of the victims had been badly mutilated

[00:28:46] in and around their sexual parts.

[00:28:49] And I think this was a good possibility.

[00:28:52] This was a man who was suffering from syphilis, probably suffering very badly from it, who

[00:29:00] was trying to take his revenge against the people who he thought he got it from.

[00:29:05] Because, of course, as usual, it was the sex workers who took the blame.

[00:29:10] It was they who were always scapegoated for the spread of syphilis, even though it takes two to tangle.

[00:29:16] They always took the blame.

[00:29:18] I think there's a line there which I don't think certainly wasn't investigated thoroughly at the time,

[00:29:24] and I think still has some resonances.

[00:29:27] We spoke about Bible John in the past, and you've got strong feelings about that, that we were dragged down the wrong road.

[00:29:33] The police were dragged down the wrong road by the media who led the inquiry,

[00:29:36] and the whole Bible John mythology that came out of that.

[00:29:40] Do you think there's a wee bit of that going on here?

[00:29:42] Do you think the five victims that are accredited to Jack the Ripper were his victims?

[00:29:47] Because the last one didn't really fit the profile, did she?

[00:29:49] She was much younger.

[00:29:50] I don't think they were.

[00:29:53] I think probably thee were, but you can't ignore the possibility of copycats,

[00:29:58] given the amount of publicity it was given to the Whitechapel Ripper.

[00:30:02] And the funny thing is, you know, it still defines us today,

[00:30:05] because if you want to paint a picture of the archetypal serial killer,

[00:30:12] then it's always in misty and foggy London,

[00:30:16] where horses and carriages are going about.

[00:30:18] It's embedded in our national psyche, the Whitechapel murders,

[00:30:24] because of the role of the media.

[00:30:26] I did feel a bit sorry for the police in this.

[00:30:28] With very limited resources, they did their very best.

[00:30:32] But the truth of the matter is that the crime stopped very abruptly.

[00:30:36] And again, I'm wondering, there was one or two suspects who committed suicide later, etc., etc.

[00:30:41] I'm wondering if there's not a clue there, but we'll never find out.

[00:30:45] We'll never know.

[00:30:46] And there's so many theories now.

[00:30:47] There have been so many TV programmes and so much nonsense and noise round about it.

[00:30:52] You're absolutely right.

[00:30:53] We'll never know.

[00:30:54] Because nobody did a proper scenes of crime examination and kept the evidence,

[00:30:59] stored the evidence for us properly.

[00:31:01] No, there was some evidence retained, and there is some evidence still in the cases.

[00:31:06] And there were some very early photographs taken of the crime scenes too.

[00:31:11] But you're right.

[00:31:12] I think that the fog of all the hype and all the fiction that surrounds it has so blinded it now

[00:31:19] that it's very, very unlikely that we'll ever get to the truth.

[00:31:24] Tom, it seems that we did it unknowingly.

[00:31:26] But when we did the first series of Crown Time Inc., we spoke about Ruxton and the World Gen murders and all the rest of it.

[00:31:33] We laid this foundation, or you did rather, right from Percy Sillito, who was the daddy as far as changing processes were concerned

[00:31:41] and putting focus on forensic analysis.

[00:31:45] And yet every case we speak about now, especially these older cases,

[00:31:50] really at the foundation is that forensic examination at the locus and the proper retention of the evidence.

[00:31:58] It's not just a case of sticking it in a box in a drawer and hoping it will be of use someday.

[00:32:03] Everything that's ever going to be used in a court of law or go through a laboratory

[00:32:07] has to be properly processed and retained and have a chain of evidence, as we would call it,

[00:32:13] that we can prove where it came from.

[00:32:15] That's a very crucial part of any conviction that we're ever going to get.

[00:32:20] And yet the last case we're talking about today focuses on the forensics that put Mr Nielsen behind bars.

[00:32:27] Yeah, yes, that's right.

[00:32:29] Dennis Nielsen, the Scotsman again from Aberdeen,

[00:32:32] who murdered and dissected the bodies of men he had taken back to his house for sexual purposes.

[00:32:41] And I think there's a couple of really learning points about Nielsen.

[00:32:47] Once again, like Fred and Rosemary West, these young men had gone missing.

[00:32:52] But because they were young gay men out on the scene,

[00:32:55] they weren't given much credence.

[00:32:57] They were not seen to be worthy victims, in my view.

[00:33:00] They were not treated as seriously as they should have been.

[00:33:04] But the other learning point from that case, and we've discussed it before,

[00:33:09] it's a lot easier to murder someone than it is to dispose of their body.

[00:33:12] We see this time and time again where people commit murders,

[00:33:16] but actually disposing of the body satisfactorily or secretly is very, very difficult indeed.

[00:33:22] A body is very difficult to get rid of.

[00:33:24] And of course, the classic case of this is the Ruxon case,

[00:33:27] where a very, very clever man who carries through a very good clean-up exercise

[00:33:31] and carries it off for a time even he's caught out in trying to dispose of the bodies.

[00:33:37] And in Nielsen's case, well, he chops them up and puts them down the drains

[00:33:41] without trying to give hints and tips to people at carrying out serious crime.

[00:33:46] The drains are always a wealth of forensic evidence in cases like this.

[00:33:52] There was nothing clever, nothing subtle to Nielsen's murders.

[00:33:56] They were brutal killings for sexual reasons.

[00:33:59] He was a despicable person.

[00:34:02] What was interesting was the fact that none of these lads had been reported missing.

[00:34:06] They were all just ignored.

[00:34:08] And the second was that you cannot dispose of people down the drains.

[00:34:12] So there's a handy hint to you, Simon.

[00:34:15] Well, I'm going to take it further than that, Tom.

[00:34:17] I've always wanted to be able to ask a deputy chief constable or senior officer

[00:34:21] a question like this, but I'll pre-empt it by asking you,

[00:34:24] what would you do for the body?

[00:34:30] Because, as every officer knows that listens to this, if any of them do,

[00:34:35] we often wonder where the gaffers hid the bodies.

[00:34:39] And if it's not in your garden under your filled-in pond,

[00:34:43] which it patently isn't when you're inviting me over for a dig,

[00:34:47] what would you do?

[00:34:49] Simon, the thing is, I'm not going to dignify that by a response.

[00:34:52] But the art to being a senior officer is not to have buried the bodies,

[00:34:57] but to know where they have been buried.

[00:35:01] That's the key.

[00:35:02] Brilliant.

[00:35:03] Tom, a thing I should mention,

[00:35:05] because that's us covered our items for this week,

[00:35:08] a fantastic job they've done.

[00:35:09] And I find myself every morning looking forward to listening

[00:35:13] to the next 10 or 15-minute episode of Crown Timing,

[00:35:17] because the research team are doing a fantastic job.

[00:35:20] Are you the same?

[00:35:22] Absolutely.

[00:35:23] I'm very impressed with the deep dive team.

[00:35:25] They give you so much food for thought,

[00:35:27] and they revisit old cases, and you think,

[00:35:30] oh, I remember that.

[00:35:31] And then you see something, and it rings a bell,

[00:35:34] and you say, aha.

[00:35:35] There are recurring themes.

[00:35:36] The retention and preservation of evidence,

[00:35:39] and the recognition of the worth of evidence.

[00:35:41] It's not just having the evidence,

[00:35:43] it's the interpretation.

[00:35:45] The interpretation.

[00:35:45] And I think that's where you do so well, Tom,

[00:35:47] is give us that social context.

[00:35:49] I was reading The Scotsman this week.

[00:35:52] I hope you don't mind me mentioning

[00:35:53] that you have an article in The Scotsman,

[00:35:56] a regular feature.

[00:35:57] And this week it was headed,

[00:35:59] The Police Are Busy Enough Without Investigating the Dead.

[00:36:03] Do you want to tell us a bit about that, Tom?

[00:36:04] It's a very interesting article.

[00:36:07] It's just the fact that recently there have been new allegations made

[00:36:12] against the now departed ex-First Minister of Scotland,

[00:36:17] Alex Salmond,

[00:36:17] who was accused and found not guilty

[00:36:19] of various sexual crimes a while ago,

[00:36:23] a few years ago.

[00:36:24] My point, Simon,

[00:36:25] is that Police Scotland are under incredible pressure right now.

[00:36:29] Incredible.

[00:36:30] There has been a billion pounds,

[00:36:32] and I repeat, a billion pounds has been stripped out of policing

[00:36:36] in the last 10 years or so.

[00:36:38] The patrol profile on the streets is very, very thin.

[00:36:43] There's many rural parts of Scotland

[00:36:45] that hardly see a policeman,

[00:36:47] let alone know a policeman to speak to.

[00:36:49] I feel sorry for my successors in Police Scotland

[00:36:53] because they've got to spread it so thin.

[00:36:56] And my point was this,

[00:36:58] that we have become far too committed

[00:37:02] to a lot of political investigations

[00:37:07] into allegations made about this one and that one for crimes.

[00:37:11] And there is no purpose whatsoever

[00:37:14] in investigating allegations made about somebody who's dead.

[00:37:19] Assuming that there is no living suspect,

[00:37:23] then this is a waste of time.

[00:37:25] And I think we've got to get,

[00:37:27] Police Scotland have got to get a lot tougher

[00:37:30] and say, no, we're not going to pander to this modern whim

[00:37:35] and we're not going to be vehicles

[00:37:37] for these kind of post-mortem allegations.

[00:37:41] We've actually got enough to do investigating the living.

[00:37:43] Tom, I couldn't agree more, by the way.

[00:37:45] It seems that some of these, if not most of these inquiries,

[00:37:50] and I'm not going to get specific about it,

[00:37:52] but they're driven by a compensation culture.

[00:37:55] One person says something

[00:37:57] and then people jump on the bandwagon.

[00:37:59] The person's dead,

[00:38:00] so there's no hope of a criminal prosecution.

[00:38:03] There might well be some civil case there in future,

[00:38:06] but that's for them to pursue through the criminal courts.

[00:38:10] It doesn't need a police investigation

[00:38:12] to stand up that civil case.

[00:38:15] No, it's through the civil courts,

[00:38:17] and you're absolutely right.

[00:38:18] I think there's a mixture of that.

[00:38:20] I think some people genuinely feel

[00:38:21] that they want to say their piece.

[00:38:25] There's an awful lot of people want to have their say,

[00:38:27] but you've got to ask yourself,

[00:38:28] why have they left it so late?

[00:38:30] I mean, this thing's been going on for years.

[00:38:32] Why come forward now?

[00:38:34] And if they are making a political point

[00:38:37] or jumping on the bandwagon,

[00:38:40] then I think we've got to make sure

[00:38:43] that the police service,

[00:38:44] which is resourced by us,

[00:38:46] it's our police service,

[00:38:48] we pay for the police service,

[00:38:50] that they're not being distracted

[00:38:51] from more important matters

[00:38:54] where you can actually get a result.

[00:38:56] And there's no way,

[00:38:57] regardless of the evidence,

[00:38:59] that they can do anything now

[00:39:00] against the suspect who is long dead.

[00:39:03] Very interesting, Tom.

[00:39:04] And that's part of you.

[00:39:05] Is it a weekly or a monthly article

[00:39:07] that you do for the Scots?

[00:39:08] Fournightly.

[00:39:09] Every second Tuesday,

[00:39:10] I write for the Scotsman.

[00:39:11] And it's very interesting,

[00:39:13] and I got a lot of very interesting feedback,

[00:39:15] both positive and negative.

[00:39:17] So it's very interesting.

[00:39:18] Well, that's what it's about, isn't it?

[00:39:20] Opening up the debate

[00:39:21] and getting different points of view

[00:39:22] in different aspects.

[00:39:24] People say to me,

[00:39:24] oh, Tom, I saw your article.

[00:39:26] I didn't agree with you.

[00:39:26] I say, good, good.

[00:39:28] I'm glad you didn't agree with me

[00:39:29] because I didn't write it

[00:39:31] for everybody to agree with me.

[00:39:34] That's interesting, Tom.

[00:39:35] If it's not already there,

[00:39:37] then it will very shortly be on our website,

[00:39:39] along with most of your other blog postings

[00:39:42] for the Scotsman over the years

[00:39:44] on all different types of subjects

[00:39:46] and whatnot.

[00:39:46] And it's always interesting

[00:39:47] to hear your view,

[00:39:48] as you say,

[00:39:49] to open the debate.

[00:39:51] I could also mention

[00:39:51] that I've started a monthly article

[00:39:53] for the National, Tom.

[00:39:55] Tom, as you well know,

[00:39:56] because I stole your story,

[00:39:57] your Sheila Anderson story,

[00:39:59] this one.

[00:40:00] Yeah.

[00:40:00] I'm not bitter about that, Simon,

[00:40:02] but I'm going to take my opportunity

[00:40:04] and try to steal one of your stories.

[00:40:06] Just watch out, boy.

[00:40:07] Just watch out.

[00:40:08] You might get the blame,

[00:40:09] let me remember.

[00:40:11] Got to watch it.

[00:40:12] And, Tom,

[00:40:13] we've got a bonus

[00:40:13] for our listeners today

[00:40:14] because not only have we got

[00:40:16] our review that we've just done

[00:40:18] of the six episodes

[00:40:19] on our daily

[00:40:20] Crown Time Inc episodes,

[00:40:22] we've also got some interviews

[00:40:24] in the can

[00:40:24] and I told you today

[00:40:25] that we've got an interview

[00:40:26] coming up with the head

[00:40:28] of the Violence Reduction Unit

[00:40:30] for Police Scotland.

[00:40:31] Our listeners can be assured

[00:40:32] that we're still going to be out there

[00:40:33] speaking to people of interest

[00:40:35] all about crime

[00:40:36] and everything related

[00:40:38] to policing.

[00:40:39] But this week,

[00:40:40] we've got an interview

[00:40:41] I did with a woman

[00:40:42] in Canada

[00:40:43] who,

[00:40:44] through nearly gross ill health,

[00:40:47] started using cannabis

[00:40:48] some 25 years ago

[00:40:50] and became one of the

[00:40:51] leading lights

[00:40:52] in the campaign

[00:40:53] in Canada

[00:40:54] to have cannabis legalised,

[00:40:56] which was a successful campaign

[00:40:57] six or seven years ago.

[00:40:59] They moved down that road

[00:41:00] of decriminalisation.

[00:41:02] So it's a re-interview

[00:41:03] with her.

[00:41:04] She's very passionate

[00:41:05] about it.

[00:41:05] She still doesn't keep well,

[00:41:07] but she swears

[00:41:08] by the medicinal benefits

[00:41:09] of cannabis.

[00:41:11] And, of course,

[00:41:11] it's now accepted here

[00:41:12] that it does have

[00:41:13] those medicinal benefits.

[00:41:16] prescribable here in the UK.

[00:41:18] So,

[00:41:19] I think you've heard that.

[00:41:21] Have you got any views

[00:41:22] on that, Tom,

[00:41:22] and what she's talking about?

[00:41:23] Yeah,

[00:41:24] I did hear it.

[00:41:24] I found it very interesting.

[00:41:25] And there's no doubt

[00:41:27] that cannaboids

[00:41:28] and cannabis

[00:41:29] have medical properties.

[00:41:31] And, of course,

[00:41:32] that's been recognised

[00:41:33] for some time here

[00:41:34] because cannabis

[00:41:35] can be prescribed here.

[00:41:37] And that's been the case

[00:41:38] for some time.

[00:41:40] But that's not the same

[00:41:41] as saying

[00:41:42] all cannabis

[00:41:43] should be legalised.

[00:41:45] I didn't accept

[00:41:46] the argument

[00:41:47] she was making.

[00:41:47] I think there's a lot more

[00:41:49] to be had.

[00:41:50] It's not just as simple

[00:41:52] as saying

[00:41:52] because for some people

[00:41:54] with MS

[00:41:56] and other type diseases,

[00:41:57] cannabis is beneficial.

[00:41:59] Therefore,

[00:42:00] all cannabis

[00:42:01] is beneficial

[00:42:02] to all people.

[00:42:03] I don't think

[00:42:04] that follows through.

[00:42:05] And I'd very much enjoy

[00:42:07] the next time

[00:42:08] we speak to her

[00:42:08] because you're right,

[00:42:09] she's a passionate

[00:42:10] and compelling speaker.

[00:42:11] I'd like to argue that

[00:42:13] through a bit with her

[00:42:14] because they're having

[00:42:16] huge problems

[00:42:17] with drugs in Canada,

[00:42:19] particularly in the

[00:42:21] Vancouver area.

[00:42:22] And there's also

[00:42:23] this association

[00:42:25] which is now

[00:42:26] very strong

[00:42:27] in terms of evidence

[00:42:28] with the use

[00:42:29] of strong cannabis

[00:42:30] and psychosis

[00:42:32] and serious

[00:42:33] mental health issues,

[00:42:35] particularly for

[00:42:36] young people

[00:42:37] who are taking

[00:42:38] strong cannabis.

[00:42:40] I'm talking about

[00:42:40] skunk cannabis now

[00:42:41] and alcohol mixes.

[00:42:43] I remember some years ago

[00:42:45] speaking to a Dutch

[00:42:47] drugs expert

[00:42:48] and the Dutch

[00:42:48] were always a wee bit

[00:42:49] ahead of us,

[00:42:50] I always felt.

[00:42:51] They were just an age

[00:42:51] ahead of us

[00:42:52] in policy development.

[00:42:53] And I said,

[00:42:54] what are your big issues?

[00:42:55] Is it cocaine?

[00:42:56] Is it heroin?

[00:42:57] And they said,

[00:42:57] no, it's not our big problem.

[00:42:58] I said,

[00:42:58] our big problem

[00:42:59] for the future

[00:43:00] is young people,

[00:43:02] very young people

[00:43:02] in their early teens

[00:43:04] starting to use

[00:43:05] strong cannabis

[00:43:06] and alcohol mixed

[00:43:07] and we worry

[00:43:08] that this is

[00:43:09] a ticking time bomb

[00:43:10] in terms of

[00:43:11] long-term

[00:43:13] mental health.

[00:43:14] I found that

[00:43:15] very interesting.

[00:43:16] They weren't talking

[00:43:17] about heroin

[00:43:18] or opiates,

[00:43:19] they weren't talking

[00:43:20] about cocaine

[00:43:21] or other stimulants,

[00:43:22] they were actually

[00:43:23] talking about

[00:43:23] strong cannabis

[00:43:25] and alcohol mix

[00:43:26] and the long-term

[00:43:27] effects

[00:43:28] that we'd have

[00:43:29] on people's

[00:43:30] mental health.

[00:43:30] I found that

[00:43:31] very interesting.

[00:43:32] Good, Tom.

[00:43:32] I think it'll be

[00:43:33] worthwhile listening to it

[00:43:34] and of course

[00:43:35] it's what we always say

[00:43:36] it would be perfect

[00:43:37] for some of our listeners

[00:43:38] to let us know

[00:43:39] their thoughts

[00:43:40] because it's about

[00:43:40] debate,

[00:43:41] it's about discussion,

[00:43:42] it's about bringing

[00:43:44] personal knowledge

[00:43:45] to the table,

[00:43:46] it's about us all

[00:43:47] putting our heads together

[00:43:48] because we all want

[00:43:49] the same thing.

[00:43:50] It's how we go about it

[00:43:51] that's important.

[00:43:52] Tom,

[00:43:52] I'll leave you for just now.

[00:43:54] We'll have a listen.

[00:43:54] I'm looking forward already

[00:43:56] to this week's episode.

[00:43:57] Yeah, so am I

[00:43:58] and I think you raise

[00:43:59] an interesting point, Nick.

[00:44:00] And I just say

[00:44:00] to our listeners,

[00:44:02] if you don't agree

[00:44:03] with Simon,

[00:44:04] for goodness sake,

[00:44:05] phone in,

[00:44:05] don't feel out about it

[00:44:06] because I don't agree

[00:44:07] with him.

[00:44:09] I'm thinking of asking

[00:44:11] our team

[00:44:11] to come up with

[00:44:12] two a day.

[00:44:15] So without further ado,

[00:44:16] here is that interview

[00:44:18] I had with Lyndon Myrston

[00:44:19] who I'd never met

[00:44:20] but I'm sure you'll find

[00:44:21] it very interesting.

[00:44:23] Alison,

[00:44:24] this is

[00:44:25] Crime Time Inc

[00:44:26] is our podcast

[00:44:27] here in the UK.

[00:44:28] I say here in the UK

[00:44:29] it's recorded

[00:44:31] by us here in the UK

[00:44:32] but it's global now.

[00:44:34] It's amazing

[00:44:34] how people listen

[00:44:35] in different parts

[00:44:37] of the world.

[00:44:37] Well, let me

[00:44:38] let you introduce

[00:44:39] yourself first

[00:44:40] and tell our listeners

[00:44:41] a wee bit about you

[00:44:42] and why we're here.

[00:44:45] Thank you so much,

[00:44:47] Simon.

[00:44:47] And I'd like to thank

[00:44:48] Leap Scotland

[00:44:49] for having me along today

[00:44:51] for the ride.

[00:44:51] You're more than welcome.

[00:44:53] More than welcome.

[00:44:53] Thank you.

[00:44:55] My name is

[00:44:56] Alison Murden

[00:44:56] as you said,

[00:44:57] Simon.

[00:44:58] I am actually

[00:44:59] a global medical

[00:45:00] cannabis and

[00:45:01] drug law reform

[00:45:03] activist

[00:45:03] for every drug

[00:45:05] and I have been

[00:45:06] for a number of years

[00:45:07] and I've been battling

[00:45:09] multiple sclerosis

[00:45:10] myself

[00:45:10] since I was

[00:45:11] a young child.

[00:45:12] I was diagnosed

[00:45:13] at age 28

[00:45:15] with primary

[00:45:16] progressive MS

[00:45:17] back to the age

[00:45:18] of under 10 years old.

[00:45:20] So I knew

[00:45:21] that I'd been

[00:45:22] dealing with it

[00:45:23] all through my

[00:45:24] teen years.

[00:45:24] I knew something

[00:45:25] really funky

[00:45:26] was going on.

[00:45:28] But anyway,

[00:45:29] but that led me

[00:45:30] to where I am

[00:45:30] today though,

[00:45:31] Simon.

[00:45:32] Thank you very much

[00:45:32] for asking.

[00:45:33] And where are you

[00:45:34] today?

[00:45:35] Where in the world

[00:45:36] are you?

[00:45:36] I know you're

[00:45:37] in Canada

[00:45:37] but it's a big country.

[00:45:38] Whereabouts

[00:45:39] are you in Canada?

[00:45:41] You bet.

[00:45:42] I'm in Burlington,

[00:45:43] Ontario.

[00:45:43] Are you aware

[00:45:44] of Leap Canada?

[00:45:45] Because I'm not.

[00:45:46] I know there's

[00:45:47] a Leap USA

[00:45:47] but I'm not sure

[00:45:48] if there's Leap.

[00:45:49] The Law Enforcement

[00:45:50] Action Partnership

[00:45:51] in Canada?

[00:45:52] No,

[00:45:53] not that I know

[00:45:54] of, Simon.

[00:45:55] And are you aware

[00:45:56] of Leap,

[00:45:57] what we do?

[00:45:59] Yes,

[00:45:59] I'm very aware

[00:46:00] of Simon.

[00:46:01] Okay,

[00:46:01] because we're just

[00:46:02] an offshoot

[00:46:03] of that.

[00:46:03] We're an offshoot

[00:46:04] of that in the UK

[00:46:05] here.

[00:46:05] There's a Leap Europe

[00:46:06] now,

[00:46:07] Australia,

[00:46:08] Scandinavia.

[00:46:10] We're all over,

[00:46:11] all over the world.

[00:46:12] So just for our

[00:46:13] listeners to let

[00:46:14] them know

[00:46:14] that Leap

[00:46:15] is a law enforcement

[00:46:16] action partnership

[00:46:17] and it's made up

[00:46:18] of people like me

[00:46:19] not just ex-cops

[00:46:20] but ex-enforcement

[00:46:22] of all kinds,

[00:46:23] the health profession,

[00:46:25] lawyers,

[00:46:26] judges.

[00:46:27] Present day officers

[00:46:28] as well,

[00:46:28] Simon.

[00:46:29] Yeah,

[00:46:30] and the three things

[00:46:30] that we all strive for.

[00:46:33] Alison,

[00:46:33] I'm not sure

[00:46:34] how this aligns

[00:46:35] with your values

[00:46:36] but we'll find out

[00:46:37] is that the drugs war

[00:46:40] is not only a disaster

[00:46:41] and it's failed

[00:46:42] but I personally believe

[00:46:44] that it's the cause

[00:46:45] of most of our ills

[00:46:46] as far as the illicit

[00:46:47] drugs market's

[00:46:48] concerned

[00:46:48] and that we need

[00:46:50] to decriminalise,

[00:46:51] that's the first thing,

[00:46:53] decriminalise the people

[00:46:54] involved in the supply

[00:46:55] lines and users

[00:46:56] and all that,

[00:46:57] right across the board

[00:46:58] for all of these

[00:46:59] so-called illicit drugs.

[00:47:01] And secondly,

[00:47:02] what we strongly,

[00:47:03] but there's no point

[00:47:04] in doing that

[00:47:04] if we don't regulate

[00:47:05] that marketplace

[00:47:06] and take control

[00:47:08] of the marketplace

[00:47:08] away from criminals

[00:47:10] where we've given it

[00:47:11] to them just now

[00:47:12] and for 53 years

[00:47:14] we've given them

[00:47:14] that marketplace

[00:47:15] to profit from.

[00:47:16] And the third part

[00:47:17] of that is that

[00:47:18] we've put in place

[00:47:20] stepping stones

[00:47:21] and part of the regulation

[00:47:23] to help people

[00:47:23] make life choices

[00:47:25] and make other choices

[00:47:26] that have maybe

[00:47:27] been forced into

[00:47:28] that illicit marketplace

[00:47:30] through the circumstances.

[00:47:32] So,

[00:47:32] that's where we're

[00:47:33] coming from.

[00:47:34] What is your history

[00:47:36] then of activism here?

[00:47:38] Obviously,

[00:47:39] you're very well known

[00:47:40] over in Canada

[00:47:40] and beyond.

[00:47:42] How did you get started

[00:47:44] in that, Alison?

[00:47:45] Well,

[00:47:45] thank you for asking,

[00:47:46] Simon.

[00:47:47] Actually,

[00:47:47] I was a corrections officer

[00:47:50] when I was younger

[00:47:51] and I was also battling

[00:47:53] my health

[00:47:53] and I knew that

[00:47:54] my health condition

[00:47:56] being multiple sclerosis

[00:47:58] was a little more difficult

[00:48:00] than some to deal with.

[00:48:01] So,

[00:48:02] I felt that

[00:48:03] at the age of

[00:48:04] probably my mid-twenties,

[00:48:06] I started to really

[00:48:08] seriously look into

[00:48:09] things like cannabis

[00:48:11] and psilocybin

[00:48:13] for relief

[00:48:14] because I have

[00:48:15] not only multiple

[00:48:16] sclerosis,

[00:48:17] Simon,

[00:48:17] but I have the world's

[00:48:18] worst pain

[00:48:20] known to medicine

[00:48:20] on my face

[00:48:21] and head

[00:48:22] 24 hours a day

[00:48:23] called

[00:48:24] trigeminal neuralgia

[00:48:26] or tick

[00:48:27] dollaroo

[00:48:27] as the nickname.

[00:48:29] It's also nicknamed

[00:48:30] the suicide disease

[00:48:31] so I knew

[00:48:33] I had work

[00:48:33] to do,

[00:48:34] boy.

[00:48:34] You've been suffering

[00:48:35] since you were 12

[00:48:36] but not diagnosed

[00:48:37] until you were 28

[00:48:39] and that includes

[00:48:40] all the symptoms

[00:48:41] that you're telling me

[00:48:42] about there,

[00:48:42] the pain

[00:48:43] and all the rest of it.

[00:48:44] So,

[00:48:45] and could you not get,

[00:48:47] well,

[00:48:47] pain relief is pain relief

[00:48:48] but it has all its own

[00:48:50] problems if we do it

[00:48:51] pharmaceutically,

[00:48:52] if we're using chemicals.

[00:48:53] My daughter had

[00:48:54] cystic fibrosis,

[00:48:56] Alison,

[00:48:56] and latterly,

[00:48:57] it's the drugs

[00:48:58] that do more harm

[00:48:59] than anything else

[00:49:00] and it's a very,

[00:49:01] very difficult

[00:49:02] balance to strike.

[00:49:03] We know that

[00:49:04] with all the cancers

[00:49:05] that the treatment

[00:49:06] can be more profound

[00:49:07] than the illness

[00:49:08] itself sometimes.

[00:49:09] So,

[00:49:10] is that the road

[00:49:11] you were going down

[00:49:12] that you were having

[00:49:13] to use more and more

[00:49:14] prescribed drugs?

[00:49:15] Yes,

[00:49:16] Simon,

[00:49:16] I got to the point

[00:49:17] where it went out

[00:49:18] to the media in Canada.

[00:49:20] I was consuming

[00:49:22] just before that

[00:49:23] 32 pills a day

[00:49:24] and 2,000 milligrams

[00:49:25] of morphine a day

[00:49:26] and doctor prescribed

[00:49:28] heroin and cocaine

[00:49:29] as well

[00:49:30] and I figured

[00:49:31] at that point

[00:49:32] my fight for cannabis

[00:49:33] seemed benign

[00:49:34] so I decided

[00:49:36] I was going to go

[00:49:37] down that road

[00:49:37] of cannabis

[00:49:38] and see exactly

[00:49:40] what,

[00:49:41] you know,

[00:49:41] where it would lead me

[00:49:42] and also again

[00:49:43] I,

[00:49:45] psilocybin,

[00:49:45] I was a young person

[00:49:46] and psilocybin,

[00:49:48] you know,

[00:49:48] came across my path

[00:49:50] a number of times

[00:49:51] and I wasn't

[00:49:51] a corrections officer

[00:49:52] at this time

[00:49:53] but I ended up

[00:49:54] trying psilocybin

[00:49:56] and I realized then

[00:49:57] that that was less harmful

[00:49:58] than cannabis

[00:49:59] so what I did

[00:50:01] was I made

[00:50:01] those two

[00:50:02] specifically

[00:50:03] my fight

[00:50:04] for medicine

[00:50:05] because not only

[00:50:07] does cannabis

[00:50:08] and now psilocybin

[00:50:10] do they take the pain

[00:50:11] out of my face

[00:50:12] within moments

[00:50:13] literally

[00:50:14] within minutes

[00:50:15] and nothing else

[00:50:17] pharmaceutically

[00:50:18] ever has

[00:50:18] for me

[00:50:19] Simon

[00:50:19] so I'm on the route

[00:50:21] now getting rid

[00:50:22] of all the pills

[00:50:23] that I was on again

[00:50:24] 32 pills a day

[00:50:26] etc, etc

[00:50:27] all the morphine

[00:50:28] all the cocaine

[00:50:30] and heroin

[00:50:30] everything gone

[00:50:31] now to be replaced

[00:50:33] with psilocybin

[00:50:34] and cannabis

[00:50:35] and some morphine

[00:50:37] can you tell us

[00:50:38] what psilocybin

[00:50:39] is then?

[00:50:40] yes

[00:50:41] psilocybin

[00:50:42] is magic mushroom

[00:50:43] Simon

[00:50:44] well known

[00:50:45] on the street

[00:50:45] as well

[00:50:46] as many of these

[00:50:47] issues are

[00:50:48] many of these

[00:50:49] substances are

[00:50:50] as a retired

[00:50:51] corrections officer

[00:50:52] I was working

[00:50:52] with young offenders

[00:50:53] and I knew

[00:50:55] that when they

[00:50:56] were getting

[00:50:56] sentenced in court

[00:50:57] for drugs

[00:50:58] I was going home

[00:50:59] and I was smoking

[00:51:00] cannabis in my closet

[00:51:01] and I knew again

[00:51:03] that what they

[00:51:04] were doing

[00:51:04] was hurting

[00:51:05] no one

[00:51:05] and I also knew

[00:51:07] that I had to

[00:51:07] do something

[00:51:08] about it then

[00:51:09] so that again

[00:51:11] started my activism

[00:51:12] into everything

[00:51:13] and snowballed

[00:51:14] to the point

[00:51:14] of where

[00:51:15] Leap found me

[00:51:16] in Ottawa

[00:51:17] Ontario

[00:51:17] Canada

[00:51:18] had a big

[00:51:18] protest there

[00:51:19] a national protest

[00:51:21] we had people

[00:51:22] from all across

[00:51:22] the country

[00:51:23] and they were

[00:51:24] protesting again

[00:51:25] about the drug laws

[00:51:26] like we are now

[00:51:27] and literally

[00:51:29] then

[00:51:29] Jack Cole

[00:51:31] from Leap

[00:51:31] United States

[00:51:32] Leap

[00:51:33] one of the

[00:51:33] four founding

[00:51:34] members

[00:51:35] asked me to

[00:51:36] join Leap

[00:51:37] that day

[00:51:37] he heard me

[00:51:38] speaking on the

[00:51:38] microphone

[00:51:39] as my voice

[00:51:40] was booming

[00:51:41] down the streets

[00:51:42] of Ottawa

[00:51:44] Can I just

[00:51:45] unpick a few

[00:51:46] things in there

[00:51:47] that our

[00:51:48] listeners may

[00:51:48] not be familiar

[00:51:49] with

[00:51:49] firstly

[00:51:50] a corrections

[00:51:51] officer

[00:51:52] I'm sure

[00:51:53] we've got them

[00:51:53] over here as

[00:51:54] well

[00:51:54] but what

[00:51:54] was your job

[00:51:55] who did you

[00:51:56] work for

[00:51:57] and what did

[00:51:57] that entail

[00:51:58] Alison

[00:51:58] I was a jail

[00:52:00] guard

[00:52:00] I worked with

[00:52:01] young offenders

[00:52:01] I worked with

[00:52:02] a number of

[00:52:03] both

[00:52:03] provincially

[00:52:05] licensed

[00:52:05] facilities

[00:52:06] as well as

[00:52:07] a federal

[00:52:08] facility

[00:52:08] here in the

[00:52:09] country

[00:52:09] so again

[00:52:10] I worked

[00:52:11] with young

[00:52:11] offenders

[00:52:12] for a number

[00:52:12] of years

[00:52:13] and I knew

[00:52:14] again that

[00:52:15] listening to

[00:52:16] the young

[00:52:16] offenders

[00:52:17] that I had

[00:52:17] taking them

[00:52:18] to court

[00:52:18] all the time

[00:52:19] the majority

[00:52:20] of their

[00:52:21] issues

[00:52:21] Simon

[00:52:21] were for

[00:52:22] drugs

[00:52:22] and the

[00:52:23] majority

[00:52:23] of those

[00:52:24] issues

[00:52:24] were for

[00:52:25] cannabis

[00:52:26] so I

[00:52:27] did not

[00:52:28] I just

[00:52:29] couldn't

[00:52:29] fathom

[00:52:30] any longer

[00:52:31] a young

[00:52:32] person

[00:52:33] going to

[00:52:33] jail

[00:52:33] for these

[00:52:34] substances

[00:52:34] when again

[00:52:35] I was using

[00:52:36] them every

[00:52:37] day of my

[00:52:37] life

[00:52:37] to feel

[00:52:38] better

[00:52:38] the law

[00:52:39] here in

[00:52:40] the UK

[00:52:40] is the

[00:52:41] Mussocia

[00:52:41] Drugs

[00:52:42] Act

[00:52:42] of 1971

[00:52:44] primarily

[00:52:45] sections

[00:52:45] 5.2

[00:52:46] and 5.3

[00:52:47] which is

[00:52:47] possession

[00:52:48] and possession

[00:52:49] with intent

[00:52:49] to supply

[00:52:50] that's the

[00:52:51] backbone

[00:52:52] of our

[00:52:52] legislation

[00:52:53] here

[00:52:53] and has

[00:52:54] been

[00:52:54] for 53

[00:52:55] years

[00:52:55] it was

[00:52:55] brought

[00:52:56] in

[00:52:56] in 1971

[00:52:57] on the

[00:52:57] back

[00:52:58] of

[00:52:58] President

[00:52:58] Nixon

[00:52:59] declaring

[00:53:00] the war

[00:53:00] on drugs

[00:53:01] while

[00:53:01] Vietnam

[00:53:02] was going

[00:53:02] on

[00:53:03] and all

[00:53:03] the rest

[00:53:03] of it

[00:53:04] can you

[00:53:04] tell us

[00:53:04] about

[00:53:05] your

[00:53:05] legislation

[00:53:06] I'm

[00:53:06] not

[00:53:06] sure

[00:53:07] how

[00:53:07] the

[00:53:07] Canadian

[00:53:07] laws

[00:53:08] sit

[00:53:08] alongside

[00:53:09] others

[00:53:09] Alison

[00:53:11] well

[00:53:11] just say

[00:53:12] no

[00:53:13] is what

[00:53:13] we say

[00:53:14] K-N-O-W

[00:53:15] because

[00:53:16] it's obviously

[00:53:17] not what

[00:53:18] we originally

[00:53:18] thought

[00:53:19] so our

[00:53:20] laws here

[00:53:21] in Canada

[00:53:21] we have

[00:53:21] a Cannabis

[00:53:22] Act

[00:53:22] now in

[00:53:23] Canada

[00:53:23] and

[00:53:23] Cannabis

[00:53:24] is legal

[00:53:25] for everybody

[00:53:26] over the

[00:53:26] age of

[00:53:27] 18

[00:53:27] it's legal

[00:53:29] to consume

[00:53:29] and we're

[00:53:30] all allowed

[00:53:30] to grow

[00:53:31] four plants

[00:53:32] anywhere

[00:53:32] in this

[00:53:32] country

[00:53:33] whomever

[00:53:34] we are

[00:53:34] again

[00:53:35] above

[00:53:35] the age

[00:53:36] of 18

[00:53:36] so

[00:53:37] we've

[00:53:37] taught

[00:53:37] our

[00:53:38] government

[00:53:38] here

[00:53:38] in

[00:53:39] Canada

[00:53:39] our

[00:53:39] liberal

[00:53:39] government

[00:53:40] again

[00:53:41] how

[00:53:41] benign

[00:53:42] cannabis

[00:53:43] is

[00:53:43] and

[00:53:43] how

[00:53:44] much

[00:53:44] again

[00:53:44] it

[00:54:37] do is rather than separate all those strains, steva and indica have the toxic effects or the

[00:54:43] more the THC effect, which is THC is tetrahydrocannabinol, which gives you that little

[00:54:50] bit of a high, more of a cerebral high. So it might be for somebody who's maybe interested in

[00:54:56] working that day and wants to focus. And that'll help you focus on what you're doing for work that

[00:55:02] day. You know, if you're writing anything, that sort of thing. Indica, I say, is more of a couch lock.

[00:55:08] It's more of the type that sort of sets you back and you want to relax and just

[00:55:12] grab a bag of potato chips and watch TV. So you could relate that to alcohol then,

[00:55:18] that you would drink different types of alcohol depending on what you were trying to do. I mean,

[00:55:23] having a bottle of beer on a warm day isn't going to affect you at all other than refresh you a bit

[00:55:30] and cool you down. And if it's managed properly, then there would be no harm in that. Whereas if

[00:55:36] you want to go out with your friends, the opposite extreme of that would be going out and drinking

[00:55:40] shots of hard liquor when you down them in a one-er because you want that effect. That's what the

[00:55:47] youngsters do. Not me, I understand. But I've got children, so I understand the principle.

[00:55:58] Simon, you know what? The whole thing is we educated the liberal government specifically

[00:56:03] before they got into power. We actually approached them in every way we could as activists to teach

[00:56:10] our government that cannabis did have all these wonderful attributes and everything that we have

[00:56:16] now because of it. So now again, we have a medical program in Canada. Cannabis is legal for everybody

[00:56:23] above the age of 18. People, again, there's been big changes and the world is watching Canada

[00:56:29] to see exactly what happens. So how do people source cannabis in Canada then? If I was on holiday in

[00:56:36] Canada, where would I go to get some cannabis? Well, we have actually dispensaries all across the country

[00:56:43] in different areas of the country. And each of those original stores that we have in Ontario, where I am,

[00:56:50] we have something called the Ontario Cannabis Stores. And people can go into them and they can

[00:56:56] search the menu. And sometimes I think they can be able to smell and see the actual product

[00:57:02] depending on where they go again. So when did that come in? When did the legality come in,

[00:57:07] Alison? When was it illegal? October 17, 2018, the government decided that they were going to come

[00:57:14] on board with us to make it for everybody. So prior to that, was cannabis illegal and punishable

[00:57:22] by imprisonment for supplying it? Sure was. Sure was. Even my growers, Simon, were getting punished by

[00:57:29] the law. What did they do with the people who were in custody or who were in proceedings at that moment

[00:57:35] in time who had maybe been charged early in 2017? Did they give them a reprieve?

[00:57:41] Nope. Not that I know of. Not that I know of. There's nothing nationally said. And we've been

[00:57:46] begging again for exactly that for a month. Well, now for years. So yeah. Okay. So where do you buy

[00:57:54] it? Is it in the shop? Is it a chemist? Or is it a licensed outlet? What does the shop look like,

[00:58:00] Alison? Is it a cannabis shop? Does it sell anything else or just cannabis?

[00:58:03] Yes. They sell every derivative of cannabis that you can think of from food, edibles, candies,

[00:58:11] chocolate. They have things you can vaporize with cannabis. They have vapor bins. A cannabis store

[00:58:19] is actually a beautiful store as far as I'm concerned. I go in, I know I'm going to feel better when I

[00:58:24] leave. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[00:58:26] But they offer everything though, Simon. Everything to do with cannabis that the government will allow

[00:58:32] at limited amounts. Of course. Yes, that's personal use, I suppose we would call it.

[00:58:39] And you can grow four plants. What's the limit of the amount you can buy then? Has it got a price limit

[00:58:44] or a weight limit? 30 grams.

[00:58:48] Okay. Let me ask you then, Alison, obviously you're biased here because you wanted this for medicinal

[00:58:54] purposes primarily for your day-to-day health and well-being. On a recreational level, because I would

[00:59:02] suggest to you that most people who use cannabis illegally or legally do so for recreational purposes,

[00:59:08] they do it for lifestyle, for relaxation, for socializing, et cetera. How has that changed the

[00:59:16] society in Canada? Are there problems associated with it?

[00:59:21] None whatsoever. None whatsoever, Simon. Again, we're not even having issues with just communities

[00:59:29] having an issue with it. We're no longer going through that. Everybody here in the country is

[00:59:34] educated to the point of where they know that cannabis is good medicine. So it's just a matter

[00:59:39] of again, they figure if it's good medicine, it must be good for everybody else then too.

[00:59:45] And that's exactly what we taught the government. Omni did legalize it.

[00:59:50] So.

[00:59:51] You buy it from a licensed, a government licensed outlet, I take it. Anybody could apply for a

[00:59:56] license to serve it under those conditions, just like we do with alcohol, we do with public

[01:00:02] houses and whatnot.

[01:00:04] You know what? Normally Canadians don't need a license to buy cannabis at all. It's only medical

[01:00:09] patients who do because we have different limits. So, you know, maybe people who help us,

[01:00:15] grow and we might be, you know, four or five times as much as the average recreational smoker would

[01:00:21] use. You know, so.

[01:00:23] I was meaning the seller, the retail outlet where you go to buy it, they need a license?

[01:00:28] Yes, actually definitely have to be licensed. Those that are not licensed in Canada are feeling

[01:00:34] the pinch.

[01:00:35] Let me ask you a facetious question here, Alison. We've got a lot of riots going on here in the

[01:00:41] UK just now, right? We're right in the middle of it.

[01:00:44] Yes.

[01:00:44] People protesting about immigration. It's the same issue that causes these problems just

[01:00:50] now all over the world because of people moving, because of wars and whatnot. And I was thinking

[01:00:55] just today when I was looking at something on the television, if we gave them all a joint

[01:01:03] or a biscuit or a cookie or a bit of cake with a bit of hash in it. You think that may go

[01:01:11] to world solving a lot of these problems?

[01:01:14] That'll solve the world's problems in a heartbeat.

[01:01:19] They would all be chilled out and wonder why they're there at all. Even crowd trouble at

[01:01:25] football matches and things like that. That's what I was thinking.

[01:01:28] Recently, there was an article that we saw in Canada about a football match in your area.

[01:01:33] It was all about cannabis. And they were saying how much more calm people were.

[01:01:39] There you go, Simon.

[01:01:41] In the police, we used to say that you never went to the accident emergency room at the

[01:01:46] hospital on a Friday night and found a lot of people stoned, you know? They were all drunk.

[01:01:53] But you never found any stoners there. They were all at home chilled out, quite happy.

[01:01:59] Let's go back a wee bit then because this is fascinating how you educated your government.

[01:02:06] Because our government, our conservative government we've had for the last 14 years just wouldn't

[01:02:11] listen at all. You expect that to some degree of a right-wing government because they like

[01:02:17] to portray themselves as being hard on law and order and all these things. When in actual fact,

[01:02:22] the criminals are running the whole thing and it's become a free enterprise of criminality. That's

[01:02:27] what it's become. But now we've got a Labour government in the last month or so. And it turns

[01:02:33] out that they're just of the same mind not to listen at all. How did you get the attention

[01:02:38] of your government? Because it's common sense now, Alison. There's people listening and thinking,

[01:02:43] if this is so simple, why are we not at least trying it? At least rolling out some kind of

[01:02:49] experiment, some kind of pilot to see if what we're seeing in Canada can be replicated elsewhere.

[01:02:56] You know, again, what we did was literally kept at it. I am one of those people. I think 20 years ago,

[01:03:04] people called me a one-trick pony in the media. And I kept trying to tell them that I was here for a

[01:03:09] while, that I wasn't a one-trick pony. But a lot of the activists in Canada are just like me,

[01:03:15] Simon. And they literally, if it weren't for them, we would not have this where it is today,

[01:03:20] cannabis in this country. So these people were beside us all the way. Every single one of us who

[01:03:27] spoke out, did interviews around the world and across the country regarding cannabis coming here in

[01:03:33] Canada, we tried to teach the government every single thing, good, bad and ugly that they could

[01:03:40] think of, and then let the country decide. Okay. So following on from that then, you've now got this

[01:03:47] legality of cannabis and you've got a foot in the door. What about hallucinogens? You referred to

[01:03:53] hallucinogens, i.e. magic mushrooms, you called it. That's wild growing mushrooms in the world.

[01:03:59] Yes. What are the governments saying about those types of things and opioids and other recreational

[01:04:06] drugs? Opioids, there's a huge problem with across Canada and in many places. It's a definite problem.

[01:04:13] So what I am trying to do as an activist is introduce something like psilocybin, which is far less harmful

[01:04:20] and far less addictive. And what we try to tell people again, I'm, you know, again, I'm for

[01:04:27] legalization, Simon, of every single drug out there. Everyone, the harder the drug, the more it has to be

[01:04:34] legalized and regulated, taken off the street, away from our children and out of the hands of criminals

[01:04:40] once and for all. And people like me, again, don't stop on that, Simon. We continue to try to teach

[01:04:47] people again what we have been taught. So again, it's a perpetual snowball. And again, that's why

[01:04:55] cannabis was legalized in Canada was because of everybody, not just because of me. We had everybody

[01:05:02] beside us walking with us to the government.

[01:05:05] My colleague here on Crime Time Inc., Tom Wood, I don't know if you've listened to any of our

[01:05:10] podcasts. Recently, he said to me on a podcast, we were talking about a woman, Violet Vanderelske,

[01:05:17] who campaigned for years to have the death penalty repealed here in the UK because she was religious

[01:05:23] and she believed it was against everything, capital punishment. And after the story, it's a great story

[01:05:28] and she was a wonderful person. Tom said at the end that there's a lesson in there for us at LEAP

[01:05:34] and for anyone else who's trying to affect change. And it's exactly what you just said there, Alison.

[01:05:39] You've just got to keep going. You've just got to keep going and keep going and keep on going.

[01:05:44] And that's the same with anything that we've changed. The laws on homosexuality,

[01:05:49] the laws on all sorts of things over the years that the government, slavery,

[01:05:53] that the government now apologised for. And someday they'll apologise for the war on drugs as well.

[01:05:59] That's for sure.

[01:06:01] The war on drugs is a war on people, Simon. The war on drugs is a war on people.

[01:06:07] I would like to narrow it down a wee bit. I want to pick your brains while I've got you here.

[01:06:12] Because something that Tom, my colleague, and his view on the cannabis issue is that

[01:06:19] there are different strains of cannabis. People are always making better, stronger,

[01:06:26] more hallucinogen, whatever you want to say, the THC content. And he thinks that we're stoking up

[01:06:32] problems with cannabis for the future with people's mental health. What's your thoughts on that?

[01:06:38] I have a little bit of a different take on things, Simon. Because from what I've been taught,

[01:06:44] mental health issues are something that is already set in your system.

[01:06:49] You're actually, you're already dealing with it, no matter who you are. The moment you pick up

[01:06:54] cannabis, it's usually, Simon, sadly enough, to try and chase those demons away. And what happens

[01:07:01] is people get, again, so used to trying to get cannabis to chase the demons that they end up having

[01:07:07] a problem with it. And their mental health comes to the surface. That's the only reason,

[01:07:14] because again, it's brought to the surface. So again, it's usually young people. And it's usually

[01:07:20] young people, again, in between the ages of late teens to mid 20s, that have problems with their

[01:07:26] mental health, because again, they're searching for answers already. So again, Simon, there's no

[01:07:32] correlation between the use of cannabis for mental health and that, other than again,

[01:07:37] they're searching for relief, I guarantee you.

[01:07:40] And one of the benefits of regulation, as I see it, and maybe you can confirm this or otherwise,

[01:07:46] is that if we allow people to use the cannabis in certain quantities, and go to buy it and get it

[01:07:54] from outlets, then we know who they are. We know what they're smoking, we know that it's safe,

[01:08:00] or using, not just smoking, but vaping or whatever it might be. We've got control of the thing then.

[01:08:05] And if there are mental health issues or other health issues, there's a chance of some intervention.

[01:08:11] Whereas just now, we send them onto the street to buy it from strangers.

[01:08:15] That's so true. Again, Simon, regulation and control is the answer. We do not want people,

[01:08:22] we don't want the streets in control. And right now, they have control. As long as they're in touch,

[01:08:27] or they have these substances in their hands, they can open up their code if there's no cannabis

[01:08:33] available. And say, well, to the child, well, what about heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamines?

[01:08:38] Why don't you try some of those? They're free today.

[01:08:41] Whereas, I take it what you're advocating for is those other drugs you mentioned there,

[01:08:45] which we're also going to decriminalize, hopefully, we would make them available through different

[01:08:50] outlets, maybe your doctor or your pharmacy or somewhere like that?

[01:08:54] Or maybe not at all, Simon. Maybe not at all. It's up to those in power to take that control

[01:09:01] and do the right thing. So we know certain substances do not have a good outcome,

[01:09:07] no matter what the ending is. So those substances, the harder and more deadly the substance,

[01:09:13] the more it needs control and regulation.

[01:09:15] Yeah, and not criminalized, because that has the opposite effect.

[01:09:19] Can I just say, Simon, drugs are a health issue and do not belong in a court of law at all.

[01:09:24] Yeah, 100%. Let me ask you this, Alison, that before, somebody told me once that gambling was

[01:09:32] illegal here in the, it was illegal in the States as well. In fact, we could talk about prohibition

[01:09:37] in the States because that's the model that we use all the time. But gambling was illegal until 1959

[01:09:44] here in the UK. And when it became legal, all the gangsters and all the bookies and all the bookies

[01:09:50] runners, they all became business people overnight. Is that what happened when you legalized cannabis?

[01:09:57] Was it all the suppliers and dealers and pushers? Did they all become legitimate business people?

[01:10:02] Some of the original people, it was a shame, like the Prince of Pot, Mark Emery,

[01:10:07] were actually made an example of. So those people, Mark and Jodi, I know Jodi, just my heart. I just,

[01:10:15] I feel that their lives were completely turned upside down because of this. But other people,

[01:10:21] yes, did benefit. But that included government officials and chiefs of police in our area that

[01:10:28] people were not too happy about when they did join those dispensaries, et cetera, that were making

[01:10:33] money because they were spending all those years before that arresting us and throwing us in jail.

[01:10:38] Because I think that's what will change here, that there's a business opportunity here for big

[01:10:43] business, because we're talking a global supply for starters as other countries come on board.

[01:10:49] We're talking about another license industry, really, like alcohol or whatever.

[01:10:54] Yes.

[01:10:55] That people want, capitalism will make sure that there's plenty. Is there much taxation involved

[01:11:00] in Canada on cannabis products?

[01:11:03] I think it rounds out to about 8% total.

[01:11:06] Okay. And that's on every transaction the government takes its cut. And who's growing it now? Is it

[01:11:12] government bodies that are growing it now and feeding the supply line?

[01:11:16] No, they had tried for the longest time when they were, when we were the original patients in 2000 and

[01:11:22] 2004. They had started to grow in the place called Flin Flin Manitoba in Canada,

[01:11:29] and they'd grown it in a mine underground. And we were like, no, first of all, the radiation again,

[01:11:37] that was in the mine before that, and the things they were actually mining was not something that I

[01:11:42] was interested in my cannabis plants soaking up. So we ended up teaching the government that it had

[01:11:48] to be grown outdoor. And now again, we've made it so that everybody in Canada can grow it. And it's

[01:11:54] not an issue really.

[01:11:55] So in 2004, in Canada, it was still illegal. Cannabis was still illegal. But you had it for

[01:12:02] health purposes. You could source medicinal cannabis. Is that correct?

[01:12:07] We started the medical cannabis program started in 2001 with a lawsuit that myself and my first

[01:12:13] lawyer, Professor Alan Young started.

[01:12:16] Right.

[01:12:16] And I brought in, I think, seven other patients or eight other patients, maybe, just to teach the

[01:12:22] government of Canada and the world that it wasn't just about multiple sclerosis in Canada,

[01:12:28] cannabis, but it was also about mental health, for example.

[01:12:33] Yes.

[01:12:34] Crohn's disease, back pain, scoliosis, like all these different things, epilepsy.

[01:12:40] Epilepsy, yeah.

[01:12:41] You know, major, again, diseases that were well-known and some that were not well-known.

[01:12:46] That puts us on a kind of timeline here then, Alison, because, and I didn't know this, but we

[01:12:52] have just started that going down. In fact, medicinal cannabis was, I think it's been now

[01:12:59] a thing here in the UK for four or five years. I might be wrong there. It might be a bit longer.

[01:13:05] But only now, our GPs aren't keen on it. They've not been educated. They don't know much about it.

[01:13:13] But I know that my son-in-law gets a supply for his condition and he's allowed to travel. He's just

[01:13:19] come back from the continent and he gets paperwork to allow him to fly and have his medicinal product

[01:13:26] with him. So we're going down that road of medicinal cannabis because we've realized

[01:13:31] the benefits to some degree, not throughout society by any stretch. This will be news to a

[01:13:37] lot of people that listen to this, I would imagine. But we're going down the same road

[01:13:41] that you went down in 2001.

[01:13:43] It's okay though, Simon, because it takes time. And all we need now, now that people are speaking

[01:13:49] out in Scotland and elsewhere around the UK especially, because they just did an interview

[01:13:54] in Spain, from Spain, from Ireland, I think. It was in Spain, it was in Barcelona. All of these

[01:14:00] people again are speaking out on behalf of cannabis, not just as medicine though, Simon,

[01:14:06] but actually like Canada, just to full out, fully legalize and regulate the substance period.

[01:14:12] Well, Germany's just come on board in the last three or four months as well. The legislation's

[01:14:17] been passed. And these are places and governments that we would have thought would be at the end

[01:14:21] of the queue. But I now know that you can go to Malta, you can go to lots of places across

[01:14:26] Europe and beyond. And what about 18, 19 states in the US, where you can legally buy more than

[01:14:33] that now. So this isn't a case of if, it's a case of when we catch up with the real world,

[01:14:39] isn't it?

[01:14:40] Yes. And you know what, again, the longer we speak out, the more we speak out, Simon,

[01:14:45] your podcast again is a wonderful thing because of that. And it's letting people know around the

[01:14:51] world that we are all in one movement. We are from the same tribe, my friends.

[01:14:58] Yeah. Is smoking still the most common way to consume cannabis?

[01:15:02] I believe so. Smoking is the fastest route of administration for medicine. But I know for

[01:15:07] the young people, they're more into vaporizing. So I don't think smoking's the main route as well

[01:15:13] anymore.

[01:15:14] Okay. Because I was thinking of the health issues involved with that because smoking's a dying

[01:15:18] thing now as well, isn't it? We're eradicating smoking, which is great, certainly in public

[01:15:23] places and things like that. But there's other ways to take the cannabis to get the benefits

[01:15:28] without having to smoke nicotine.

[01:15:30] Yes, exactly.

[01:15:31] What about the strength thing? You mentioned is it THC is the element in cannabis that is

[01:15:37] the high, that gives you the high. And there are different strengths of THC or concentrations

[01:15:42] of THC in hundreds of different types of cannabis.

[01:15:46] Yes.

[01:15:47] So how do you know what you're taking? If you go into a shop, they tell you what the

[01:15:51] content is then. Whereas if you buy it on the street, you could be buying anything at all.

[01:15:56] You're right. And that's exactly why we buy it at the stores here in Canada. Because then

[01:16:02] you do know what you're getting, Simon.

[01:16:04] So people choose to go to the store now instead of buying it. Could they buy it cheaper on the

[01:16:09] street?

[01:16:09] I think there are still a few people on the street. I myself have a grower who they would consider

[01:16:15] a street grower who donates beautiful cannabis to me a number of times a year. And I just am so

[01:16:23] blessed that this particular grower does this. So there are many growers. Again, I've had many in

[01:16:29] Ontario where I live help me out as well. Growers who aren't legal. So again, just grow four plants for

[01:16:36] themselves and have more than they thought they would.

[01:16:38] And is it an offence to buy it from them?

[01:16:41] I don't buy it from them. They give it to me.

[01:16:44] But would it be? If I bought it from them, would I be committing a crime?

[01:16:48] It certainly would be trafficking, my friend.

[01:16:51] Okay. So the laws are that you must buy it from a licensed outlet, government outlet, and pay your 8%

[01:16:58] tax on it.

[01:16:59] Yeah, exactly.

[01:17:01] And everybody else that's out with that. Yeah. I'm just trying to get the model in my head so that

[01:17:07] people can see how this can actually happen. I mean, Amsterdam's been like that for 40 years,

[01:17:13] as far as I'm aware. You could go into a store and buy a cookie or lots of funny stories about that,

[01:17:20] people getting caught out like that. And regardless of the strength of it or the concentration of it,

[01:17:27] that's more of a reason to regulate so that people know what they're buying.

[01:17:32] You're so right, my friend. That's exactly why. You want to make sure you know what you're consuming,

[01:17:39] whatever it may be. Again, even as a patient, I keep going down that line. But as a patient,

[01:17:45] Simon, I have to know because I tell my doctors what I'm consuming. Oh, this percentage of THC

[01:17:51] on average makes me feel better. Or this particular strain takes the pain away. And that's what people

[01:17:58] need to do. They need to go to their doctors and they have to stop being scared of it. They have to

[01:18:05] go to their doctors and tell their doctors they're consuming cannabis, no matter what, if it is

[01:18:10] medicine in their life, and then deal with it from there. The doctor will probably say, oh, I don't want

[01:18:15] to hear that. Bottom line, in Canada, if that's in my chart, and I'm with my doctor, I asked my doctor

[01:18:22] to write that down, that will be in my chart for life. So again, I've been doing that since I've

[01:18:28] been young. I've been talking about cannabis and psilocybin and all the wonderful things that go along

[01:18:34] with these. Is it fair to say, have you been campaigning then for, well, that's at least 23,

[01:18:42] 24 years you've mentioned to me? Longer than that, Alison, have you been campaigning for this?

[01:18:48] Yes, sadly enough. I haven't grown a year older though. Isn't that weird?

[01:18:54] You see that big smile you've got? Our listeners won't see that big smile.

[01:18:58] Is that because of the success you're having? Or is it because of the cannabis you're using?

[01:19:03] I think it's a little bit of both.

[01:19:08] Let me just go back to the hallucinogen, because that, as a retired police officer, that has lots

[01:19:14] of ramifications for me, because I lived through the 80s when people were jumping off buildings

[01:19:20] and stuff with acid and class A drugs, and hallucinogens were a real problem for us. I don't know what

[01:19:26] it's like now, because I'm away from that scene. But as soon as you say magic mushrooms, that's

[01:19:31] what I think of. I remember coming back from a game of golf once with a couple of rascals

[01:19:36] that I used to know down in Argyle. And we had agreed to meet back at a pub for a pint once

[01:19:42] we got washed and got rid of our clubs and stuff like that, Alison. And when I went into

[01:19:46] the pub, the two of them were sitting at this table with their hands, both hands each on

[01:19:51] the table, staring into space. And I said, what's going on here? What's happened here?

[01:19:58] And neither of them could speak. And eventually one of them said, are you coming in this helicopter

[01:20:04] or not, big man?

[01:20:06] And I discovered that while I had been hitting the ball around the course, they had been going

[01:20:10] into the rough and gathering magic mushrooms. And when they got back to one of their houses,

[01:20:16] they'd made tea. This is what they did back in those days. I don't know if they still do

[01:20:20] that. They had made a pot of tea with magic mushrooms and had a wee glass, a wee glass before

[01:20:27] they came out to meet me for a pint. So that's my memories. That's my knowledge of magic mushrooms.

[01:20:34] The problem with them is they grow wild. So how on earth does the government regulate that?

[01:20:39] How would they in your area? I have no idea.

[01:20:43] How do you do it?

[01:20:44] And up to the government to realise. But again, we're teaching our government in Canada that

[01:20:50] magic mushrooms are safer than cannabis. And again, less addictive. By far, they're far less

[01:20:58] addictive, if at all. And bottom line, again, whether or not these are good for us, we teach

[01:21:03] them. So and just to get back to LSD, I actually started consuming LSD the last few years for the

[01:21:12] pain in my face. And I was scared too, Simon. I thought again, every story I heard was that people

[01:21:18] were jumping off buildings and they were doing horrible things that kill themselves and kill

[01:21:23] other people. And it took me until three years ago to actually try LSD. And I was so desperate

[01:21:29] that I actually used LSD. The first tab I took, I was pain free within five minutes, five minutes.

[01:21:39] Now they're using LSD in clinical trials and studies around the world for people like me with

[01:21:46] neurological pain.

[01:21:48] What we're saying here is all these drugs that were written off by governments 50 years ago, 60 years

[01:21:53] ago and said, these are bad, you're not allowed. And if you touch them, we're going to lock you up,

[01:21:58] you're going to prison. Really, what we're saying is we should harness these drugs.

[01:22:03] Yes.

[01:22:04] Find out where they could be of use in our society or not, where the dangers lie with them,

[01:22:11] regulate them properly and put them to work for us, for people who are in pain or people who are

[01:22:17] maybe suicidal or going through grief or whatever it might be. All the problems that exist in society,

[01:22:25] these drugs can be of benefit too, but not in the hands of criminals.

[01:22:30] Exactly. And this is again, my entire fight. I ran for federal office again in 2004. I did a little

[01:22:38] bit that year. I ran for federal office for the new democratic party of Canada with cannabis on my

[01:22:44] platform. And I got international attention for it because it was the first person in the world to run

[01:22:50] for federal office politically and have cannabis as part of my platform. So I ended up again,

[01:22:58] teaching everybody because it hasn't just been about cannabis for me. I'm day one. I've been talking

[01:23:04] about legalizing and regulating all substances. Yes, for the reason as medicine, because in Canada,

[01:23:11] we can't study them unless they're legal. Keep that issue open, Simon. I'm so glad you said that.

[01:23:19] In order to find out what benefit these substances could be to us, we need to be able to do the

[01:23:25] research. And we can't do the research as long as we keep calling them illegal.

[01:23:31] Exactly, my friend. Exactly. We need to harness these things. Let me wind up here and ask you this,

[01:23:37] because I could go on all night because you've got such knowledge. Have you written a book yet?

[01:23:42] You know what? I have a book sitting on my bedside table that I wrote 35 years ago that's collecting

[01:23:47] dust. Right. But we need a new one. We need a new one to tell us, because you could write the

[01:23:53] template for campaigners in this field. And I do want to pick your brains. I think what we'll do is I'll

[01:23:59] get Tom involved next time we chat to you, if you'll come back and chat to us again. He'll have lots of

[01:24:03] questions about cannabis, because he's got it in his head that there's strong stuff out there that's

[01:24:09] going to undermine everyone and make us all into zombies, I think. We'll learn them.

[01:24:16] What I wanted to wind up with really was to ask you about the campaigners, all the people over the

[01:24:25] years who've struggled and been thought of as criminals, been thought of as hippies. They've

[01:24:31] got lots of names for us, haven't they, that they call us, and lots of cliches and all that, which

[01:24:36] was all part of Nixon's plan to ostracize people back in the 70s. People who wanted peace, basically,

[01:24:43] who didn't agree with the warmongering that the US was involved in, and some would say still is.

[01:24:49] So I wanted to get you to sum up for us and tell us, you're quite content then where we are,

[01:24:56] that it's coming, that it just takes time, that nothing happens overnight. And it's a process of

[01:25:01] education, really. That's exactly what it is. You have to be tenacious, Simon. You have to not give up.

[01:25:09] I've been going at it for over 30 years in Canada. I've been doing this and publicly,

[01:25:14] I've been in the public eye since I think 2000, 2001. But I've been in the media for,

[01:25:21] again, a lot of years around the world. But I always, again, keep to my same story, Simon.

[01:25:27] The story never changes. It's not about me. It's about the issue.

[01:25:31] And are you aware of lots of other people who suffered different ill health, physical ill health

[01:25:36] like you have, and other kinds of ill health, mental ill health, who have benefited from using

[01:25:42] the likes of cannabis? Many people, Simon. I can't tell you. I actually stopped recently in

[01:25:50] the neighborhood by a woman in her 80s who said that she could not thank me enough for even speaking

[01:25:55] about cannabis because she was cheering me on, watching me on TV in her home.

[01:26:00] We were taught as youngsters to just say no thing. That cannabis, what was it they called it? A gateway

[01:26:08] drug, right? That's what the government said to us when we were teenagers and whatnot. This is a gateway

[01:26:14] drug that you try, and it's just going to get you into harder drugs and harder drugs and harder drugs.

[01:26:19] That was the nonsense that we were taught, and to just say no. And we've given them a fair crack at

[01:26:25] that strategy for 53 years. I think what they need to do now is admit that it's not working.

[01:26:32] You know, again, you're so right. My first lawyer, I've had lawyers that have worked for me pro bono for

[01:26:38] free for decades because of the work I do. My first lawyer, Professor Alan Young, when we did media

[01:26:45] around the world, he often said when it was asked that question, if cannabis was a gateway drug, said,

[01:26:52] absolutely not, Simon. Milk is a gateway drug. We all start with milk.

[01:27:02] Yeah, now you're talking. Well, I want to make cannabis a gateway drug because what you've done tonight

[01:27:10] has turned my head that I was thinking, oh, this cannabis campaign, I tend to steer away from it because

[01:27:17] LEAP is about the drugs market, the illicit drugs market as it is. And I never wanted to get involved in the

[01:27:25] minutiae of one drug or another. But I now see cannabis might be a gateway drug for us.

[01:27:32] Yes, education.

[01:27:34] We've got medicinal cannabis now in the marketplace. There's the gate. There's the gate opening.

[01:27:40] Once we get it legalized to some degree, like Germany and Canada and a lot of states and all

[01:27:47] the countries across the world that are allowing controlled and regulated use of cannabis.

[01:27:53] Yes.

[01:27:54] That's the gateway to educate them about the benefits of all the other substances that mankind is ignoring

[01:28:00] just now by calling them criminal.

[01:28:03] That's what we're hoping for, Simon. If we can change one mind, we've done it.

[01:28:07] You've changed one tonight.

[01:28:10] I've discovered that Canadians are much more fun than I ever thought they could be.

[01:28:18] Alison, it's been absolutely. And once we hang up here, I'm going to think of all the things I

[01:28:23] wanted to speak to you about. Hopefully you'll come back on and do that for us. Maybe do some kind of

[01:28:30] public forum where people can come because it's an education issue, Alison. That's all it is.

[01:28:35] And you're 20 years down that road of learning that we're behind. So maybe we could set up something

[01:28:42] online or whatever. I'll have a rethink about it. And you'd be pleased as a new friend of Crime Time Inc.

[01:28:49] to come and talk to us, yeah?

[01:28:52] Crime Time Inc. I would love it, my friend. I would absolutely love it.

[01:28:57] Brilliant. Alison, I'm going to let you go and say bye-bye to your partner for me, to Gary for me.

[01:29:04] And we'll speak again for sure. Okay?

[01:29:07] Well, I adore you, my friend. Have a wonderful day.

[01:29:11] Lots of love. Bye now. Bye-bye.

[01:29:13] Bye-bye.

[01:29:24] Tom, I think these daily episodes are a game changer for us. I'm really enjoying it.

[01:29:29] They are Simon and there's a lot more to come. Looking forward to it.

[01:29:33] Tune in tomorrow for another exciting True Crime episode.