In this Crime Time Inc, live event, hosts Tom and Simon bring a unique blend of unscripted banter, personal anecdotes, and in-depth discussions on notorious criminal cases and modern policing challenges. Special guest, former Daily Record head crime reporter Jane Hamilton tries in vain to keep the event on script as they emphasise their podcasting style that captivates audiences both online and live. Leveraging their extensive backgrounds in law enforcement, Simon recounts his experience with Strathclyde Police and undercover work.Tom shares his career progression and insights on cold case reviews, including his work on the influential Ruxton case, underscoring forensic advancements in crime scene management. Simon explores the profound impact of his book, 'The Ten Per Cent, dedicated to his late daughter and highlighting stories from frontline policing. Ethical dilemmas and psychological tolls of undercover operations are candidly examined, showcasing the complexity and emotional weight of such assignments. The hosts also delve into controversial subjects like Bay City Rollers manager,Tam Paton’s scandals and the inefficacy of the war on drugs, supported by personal journalism experiences and advocacy for law reform. Each episode weaves together historical context, forensic breakthroughs, and personal stories, providing listeners with a comprehensive, engaging, and thought-provoking understanding of crime investigation and law enforcement.
About Crime Time Inc.
Crime Time Inc. is hosted by Tom and Simon—two ex-cops with decades of frontline experience and zero tolerance for fluff. Tom, a by-the-book former Deputy Chief Constable from Edinburgh, and Simon, a rule-bending ex-undercover cop from Glasgow, bring sharp insight, dark humour, and plenty of East vs. West banter to every episode.
Whether they’re revisiting cases they worked on, grilling fellow former officers, or picking apart narrated true crime stories, Tom and Simon don’t just talk about crime—they’ve lived it. Real cases. Real cops. Real talk.
Our Website: https://crimetimeinc.com/
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[00:00:00] Good evening Tom, how are you? I'm well Simon, how are you? I'm fantastic, are you enjoying a wee break just now? We've not been in our usual format, recording format for Crime Time
[00:00:09] Well I hate to say this Simon but I've missed you
[00:00:13] I have, it's amazing how even bad habits are catching
[00:00:22] So you're hitting the drink now, that's what you're trying to tell me, there's obviously something
[00:00:26] Well yeah but the problem is Simon I have to buy it, that's a trouble, it's not like the old days
[00:00:35] We'll not go there, you and I are redundant because our team have put together our live show that we recorded in Hillhead Library
[00:00:43] It seems like a lifetime ago now, August the 4th, but it was a great day
[00:00:49] Did Jane enjoy it? I meant to ask you any feedback from Jane Hamilton who refereed for us or hosted for us on the day
[00:00:57] I think you were right the first time refereed
[00:01:00] She thoroughly enjoyed it
[00:01:02] Good
[00:01:03] And so did I, it was a great day, it's a great venue and there was a good crowd, good questions
[00:01:08] Yeah, thoroughly did and so did Jane
[00:01:10] Good, I was asking because we'd only started, we had a rough idea of the topics and what we were going to do
[00:01:17] And we'd only started two minutes and she said, do you two not stick to the script at all?
[00:01:23] I thought she was getting a wee bit frustrated about you and I, the banter
[00:01:27] No it wasn't you and I, it was you Simon, it was you
[00:01:32] The thing is, not only did you not stick to the script, you didn't even start with the script
[00:01:37] I mean if you'd started and then wandered off, but you didn't start at all
[00:01:42] Memory lapse
[00:01:43] However, however, listen to the truth, I was expecting that and I was ready for it
[00:01:49] Poor Jane wasn't, but I was
[00:01:51] Tom, I think it's a feature of Crime Time Inc. that we're not scripted here
[00:01:56] We've got a story that we're going to talk about
[00:01:58] But we've absolutely no idea where it's going to go on the recording
[00:02:02] And I think that's a feature that we'll come across on the live event
[00:02:05] Recorded at Hillhead Library, I think we'd nearly 80 there on the day
[00:02:10] You sold a lot of books, I was watching
[00:02:12] That was your main thing, getting that money in
[00:02:14] I saw that, have you spent it yet?
[00:02:18] As you know, listen, as you know Simon
[00:02:20] It all goes to the publishers
[00:02:23] I'm sitting here through an Edinburgh in the freezing cold with a single candle
[00:02:27] That's all I've got to heat me
[00:02:29] It's dreadful, that Labour government have cut your heating
[00:02:32] Allowed as well, Tom
[00:02:34] It's terrible
[00:02:34] Yeah, I know
[00:02:36] So this here is the first half of the show, Tom
[00:02:39] And next week we'll have the second part
[00:02:42] And then we'll be talking about a big announcement
[00:02:44] Because we've got a new season coming up, season three
[00:02:47] And I know that we've been using your time
[00:02:50] You especially, because of your book writing
[00:02:52] You've got a new book coming out in the spring
[00:02:54] And I know that you're busy with that just now
[00:02:57] But we've got a big announcement
[00:02:58] Because you and I have been listening to some podcasts
[00:03:01] Other people's podcasts
[00:03:02] And apart from the quality of them
[00:03:05] We've got some real reservations about some of the information
[00:03:08] And research that's not going on behind the scenes
[00:03:12] And we've got an idea how we might be able to address that to some degree
[00:03:16] On Crime Time Inc
[00:03:18] What's your thoughts on that?
[00:03:20] I'm looking forward to it, Simon
[00:03:21] Yeah, like you, I've been listening to some other podcasts
[00:03:26] Some good, some bad, some indifferent
[00:03:28] And I think there's some real lessons there for us
[00:03:31] And I think that next season's going to be very, very interesting
[00:03:35] Looking forward to it
[00:03:36] Great, Tom
[00:03:37] Meantime, here we are live on stage in Glasgow
[00:03:40] Welcome, everyone
[00:03:41] Thank you
[00:03:42] The very first recording live of Crime Time Inc
[00:03:46] Give yourselves a round of applause for making it out here today
[00:03:50] Well done
[00:03:53] And possibly a double celebration
[00:03:55] It could be the very last recording of Crime Time Inc
[00:04:01] Bill
[00:04:03] I notice all the guys that there might be warrants for are up the back
[00:04:06] They are ready for a quick escape
[00:04:07] That's very smart today
[00:04:09] Let me first of all welcome our guests here
[00:04:12] Jane Hamilton
[00:04:13] Tell Me a Story
[00:04:14] Best-selling book
[00:04:17] Former Daily Record head crime reporter
[00:04:20] And now great friend and guest of Crime Time Inc
[00:04:23] And she's going to be our host or referee or whatever's required today
[00:04:27] To keep this thing on track
[00:04:29] Thanks very much for coming through, Jane
[00:04:31] Thanks for having me, Simon
[00:04:33] Also very heavily involved in the arrest and subsequent sentencing of Peter Tobin
[00:04:38] As well
[00:04:39] But that's something we'll come on to later on
[00:04:41] Now I've got something prepared here that I wanted to
[00:04:44] I just wanted to make a confession right from the start
[00:04:47] Some of you would say maybe coming out
[00:04:49] But I'll let you be the judge of that
[00:04:52] I just wanted to say that Glasgow feels like a natural home
[00:04:56] And I always wanted to work through here with real detectives
[00:05:01] Where the nitty gritty is
[00:05:04] Where detectives actually know what's going on
[00:05:07] And are there on the streets
[00:05:09] And I always considered myself a real Ouija
[00:05:12] Oh wait a minute Tom
[00:05:14] This is your notes I've picked up here by mistake
[00:05:20] Off script already
[00:05:22] Guys what Tom does bring to us
[00:05:24] Some of you will know this already
[00:05:25] If you listen to the podcast
[00:05:27] Is that Tom's the retired deputy chief constable
[00:05:31] Of Lothian and Borders Police
[00:05:33] And although it breaks my heart to say it
[00:05:35] I hope this has not been recorded Chris
[00:05:37] He brings so much to Crime Time Inc
[00:05:40] A wealth of experience and knowledge
[00:05:41] From a position as deputy chief of a force of three and a half thousand people
[00:05:46] It's probably more than that
[00:05:47] But I'm sure he'll correct me
[00:05:49] And he brings all that to us here
[00:05:51] And especially the historical insight that he has
[00:05:54] Because of the cases that he's investigated
[00:05:57] And re-investigated his cold cases over the years
[00:06:01] As soon as he starts talking
[00:06:03] The reason I'm going on is because we won't shut him up
[00:06:05] Once he starts talking about it
[00:06:06] But that's what we're here for
[00:06:08] You'll understand immediately
[00:06:09] If you don't already
[00:06:11] What I'm getting across here
[00:06:12] So I'm going to hand over to Jane
[00:06:13] And she's going to be our hostess
[00:06:15] With the mostess
[00:06:16] And take us forward
[00:06:18] Alright Jane?
[00:06:20] Yeah that's fine
[00:06:20] Thanks for having me on guys
[00:06:22] As your esteemed expert guest
[00:06:25] And there's not going to be any clips about the two goons sitting right beside me
[00:06:29] Tom, can you tell us a bit about Ruxton first?
[00:06:32] Yeah thanks very much
[00:06:33] Thanks very much folks
[00:06:34] It's nice to meet you all
[00:06:35] And it's lovely to be here in Glasgow
[00:06:36] It's lovely
[00:06:37] It's just like Edinburgh
[00:06:39] It's raining
[00:06:39] There's roadworks everywhere
[00:06:40] I just feel at home
[00:06:42] I'll tell you
[00:06:42] It's funny
[00:06:43] Just first of all
[00:06:44] The podcast
[00:06:45] I mean it's interesting because
[00:06:47] How long have we been doing it now Simon?
[00:06:49] About a year?
[00:06:50] A year?
[00:06:51] And how many episodes have we got out?
[00:06:53] 40 odd
[00:06:55] And we kind of met by accident
[00:06:57] Because we were both writing books for the same publisher
[00:07:01] And we met
[00:07:01] And it's funny because
[00:07:02] Our careers ran about the same period of time
[00:07:05] I was in the east
[00:07:06] Simon was in the west
[00:07:07] We were both involved in serious crime and criminal investigation
[00:07:11] And yet our paths have crossed really
[00:07:13] Until we met about a year and a half, two years ago
[00:07:17] And so we bring different things to the podcast
[00:07:21] In that we were both playing on the same pitch
[00:07:24] If you want to use a football analogy
[00:07:26] But we were doing completely different jobs
[00:07:28] And I think that adds to it
[00:07:30] And what I like particularly about Simon is his respect
[00:07:33] And the way he always defers to me
[00:07:36] I think that's really good
[00:07:37] The other thing to say about the podcast
[00:07:40] I have to say it now
[00:07:41] Is we couldn't have done it
[00:07:43] And we couldn't do it without Chris
[00:07:44] Who's sitting here down to my right
[00:07:46] In the pitch here
[00:07:50] Because it all looks very easy
[00:07:53] And it is very easy
[00:07:55] For Simon and I
[00:07:56] Just sitting
[00:07:57] Talking nonsense about old cases
[00:08:00] It's actually Chris
[00:08:01] That puts it all together
[00:08:03] To make it sound as if it's sensible
[00:08:05] And that's no easy trick
[00:08:06] So thanks Chris for that
[00:08:08] Thanks Chris
[00:08:09] So Simon went off script there
[00:08:11] Just for anybody who doesn't know
[00:08:13] I think we should probably get a short bio
[00:08:15] From both Tom and Simon
[00:08:18] Just for anybody here that maybe doesn't know them
[00:08:21] Or any listeners
[00:08:22] So Simon we'll kick off with you
[00:08:24] Just give us a brief outline of who you are
[00:08:26] Okay
[00:08:27] Well I've been sober now for 36 hours
[00:08:32] That's a lie actually
[00:08:33] Because I was at an Elvis night last night
[00:08:35] And it was tremendous
[00:08:36] I wasn't allowed to wear the glasses today on here
[00:08:38] I joined in 1978
[00:08:40] Joined Strathclyde Police
[00:08:41] The real police I call them
[00:08:43] Strathclyde Police as it was back then
[00:08:45] There were eight forces back then
[00:08:47] And I quickly
[00:08:49] In fact
[00:08:50] Why don't you just buy my book
[00:08:51] And you'll get all this
[00:08:53] I quickly aspired to be in the CID
[00:08:56] A murder that we're going to talk about
[00:08:57] In fact the World's End murders
[00:08:59] The ultimate capture for that
[00:09:01] And arrest for that
[00:09:02] It tied in with a lot of other murders
[00:09:03] And I was involved in the murder
[00:09:05] Of the finding of the body
[00:09:06] I was going to say I was involved in the murder
[00:09:08] I was involved in the finding of Anna Kenny's body
[00:09:10] Down in Skip Ness
[00:09:11] But we'll come back to that
[00:09:12] That was 1979
[00:09:13] And I was just out of the wrapper
[00:09:15] I was still very much raw
[00:09:17] And we've got Officer Ian Andrew here tonight
[00:09:19] Who was my neighbour at that time
[00:09:20] Quickly got in the CID
[00:09:22] Within three years
[00:09:23] And that was really my natural home
[00:09:25] And from there went to Rossi
[00:09:27] From there went to the CID's Crime Squad
[00:09:29] Which was quite elite
[00:09:31] And spent most of my years thereafter
[00:09:33] In Strathclyde
[00:09:34] In Sunnygubbin
[00:09:36] Across the water
[00:09:37] And from there
[00:09:38] Was poached
[00:09:39] I suppose
[00:09:40] To go and do some undercover work
[00:09:41] And that kind of stuff
[00:09:43] More nationwide
[00:09:44] Is that enough Jane?
[00:09:46] You got enough?
[00:09:46] Yeah that's fine
[00:09:47] Tom?
[00:09:48] I joined Edinburgh City Police
[00:09:50] Just before it amalgamated
[00:09:51] To become Lothian and Borders Police
[00:09:53] Back in the early 70s
[00:09:54] And like Simon
[00:09:56] I found myself very quickly
[00:09:57] Into the CID
[00:09:58] And we're going to talk about
[00:09:59] The World's End murders
[00:10:01] Which happened in October 1977
[00:10:03] And on that day
[00:10:05] I was literally
[00:10:06] The newest detective sergeant
[00:10:08] In the force
[00:10:09] And I was of course
[00:10:10] Not allowed out on the public yet
[00:10:12] And quite wisely so
[00:10:14] I was stuck in the office
[00:10:15] But I remember the day very well
[00:10:17] So I was in the CID
[00:10:18] Serious Crime Squad
[00:10:19] And then I became
[00:10:20] A detective superintendent
[00:10:21] In charge of serious crime
[00:10:23] And eventually ended up
[00:10:25] As the Deputy Chief Constable
[00:10:26] And Director of Operations
[00:10:28] And my last job
[00:10:29] Was as the officer
[00:10:30] In overall command
[00:10:31] Of the inquiry
[00:10:33] Into Angus Robertson Sinclair
[00:10:35] Who was the world's end murderer
[00:10:37] And in fact also murdered
[00:10:39] Quite a number of girls
[00:10:41] Through here in the West as well
[00:10:42] I think
[00:10:43] And there'll be some debate about it
[00:10:45] But I think
[00:10:46] Probably the most dangerous man
[00:10:48] To walk the face of Scotland
[00:10:49] In the 20th century
[00:10:50] And one of the books up there
[00:10:52] That I've written
[00:10:52] Is about the world's end murders
[00:10:54] The 37 year investigation
[00:10:57] That I was involved in
[00:10:58] After I left the police
[00:11:00] I went to work in
[00:11:01] Alcohol and drug strategy
[00:11:02] Adult and child protection
[00:11:03] And I also did a number
[00:11:05] Of cold case reviews
[00:11:06] In the north of England
[00:11:07] And this is important
[00:11:08] Because having been an SIO
[00:11:11] Of murder investigations
[00:11:12] When I was a working detective
[00:11:14] And then actually
[00:11:15] Taking an outside view
[00:11:18] Of the investigation
[00:11:19] As a kind of a
[00:11:20] An overseer of the cold case
[00:11:22] Kind of changed my views a bit
[00:11:24] And that's reflected
[00:11:26] In a lot of conversations
[00:11:27] That we have
[00:11:28] And it's reflected also
[00:11:29] In the books I've written
[00:11:30] The other book I've written recently
[00:11:32] Is Ruxton
[00:11:33] The First Modern Murder
[00:11:34] And that's a look at
[00:11:35] One of the most famous murders
[00:11:36] In British criminal history
[00:11:38] And one that really
[00:11:40] Changed the whole face
[00:11:42] Of forensic science
[00:11:43] Can you tell the audience
[00:11:46] About the Ruxton murder
[00:11:47] And give us a bit of a
[00:11:48] Background to it
[00:11:49] Dr Buck Ruxton
[00:11:51] Who was a French Indian
[00:11:53] Who came to the UK
[00:11:55] In the early 1930s
[00:11:57] And who set up as a doctor
[00:11:58] In Lancaster
[00:12:00] Down in Lancashire
[00:12:01] And he married a Scottish girl
[00:12:03] Bella
[00:12:04] Who was an effervescent
[00:12:06] Bubbly Scottish lady
[00:12:08] Who would have fitted right in now
[00:12:10] To the 21st century
[00:12:11] But she was too hot to handle
[00:12:13] For Ruxton
[00:12:14] In the early part
[00:12:15] Of the 20th century
[00:12:16] He was a very old fashioned man
[00:12:17] And a domestic violence thing
[00:12:19] Ensued
[00:12:20] And a very familiar pattern
[00:12:22] And most of the murders
[00:12:24] That Simon and I
[00:12:24] Have been involved in
[00:12:25] Actually sadly
[00:12:26] Are domestic murders
[00:12:28] He killed her
[00:12:29] He killed her one night
[00:12:30] 14th September 1935
[00:12:32] They had a nursemaid
[00:12:33] Who lived in the house
[00:12:34] She came out
[00:12:35] To try and defend her mistress
[00:12:36] She too was killed
[00:12:38] So far so familiar
[00:12:39] And a very ordinary case
[00:12:41] Except then
[00:12:42] That Ruxton decided
[00:12:43] Because he was a skilled surgeon
[00:12:45] A very good doctor and surgeon
[00:12:47] He decided to dismember the bodies
[00:12:49] And disguise the bodies
[00:12:50] And he did this
[00:12:51] Very successfully
[00:12:52] And there followed
[00:12:54] The most complex
[00:12:56] Forensic science case
[00:12:58] At that time
[00:12:59] In the 20th century
[00:13:00] Which gave rise to
[00:13:02] Groundbreaking new techniques
[00:13:03] All of which we inherited
[00:13:05] And
[00:13:06] We didn't know it
[00:13:08] But when Simon and I
[00:13:09] Started in the CID
[00:13:10] The things we did
[00:13:12] At the scene of a crime
[00:13:13] All came from
[00:13:14] The Ruxton case
[00:13:15] And so it's a very
[00:13:16] Very important
[00:13:17] Investigation
[00:13:18] And the book's been
[00:13:20] Thankfully
[00:13:20] Very successful
[00:13:21] And it's been turned
[00:13:22] Into a podcast
[00:13:23] By an American company
[00:13:25] Small Town Dicks
[00:13:26] Great podcast site
[00:13:27] Almost as good as
[00:13:28] Crime Time Inc
[00:13:28] Almost
[00:13:30] And also
[00:13:31] Hopefully for development
[00:13:33] Into TV and film
[00:13:34] So
[00:13:34] It's funny
[00:13:35] Because everybody here
[00:13:36] Has written books
[00:13:37] And
[00:13:38] You don't really know
[00:13:39] How it's going to land
[00:13:41] And
[00:13:41] You do your best
[00:13:42] And
[00:13:43] You think it's a good book
[00:13:45] And some of them
[00:13:46] Land well
[00:13:46] And some of them don't
[00:13:47] Some just take off
[00:13:48] On their own
[00:13:49] And that's what's
[00:13:50] Can I ask you a wee question
[00:13:51] Totally off script here Tom
[00:13:52] Yep
[00:13:53] I saw a thing
[00:13:54] Somebody messaged me
[00:13:55] Last night
[00:13:55] On Facebook
[00:13:56] And I saw it this morning
[00:13:57] And it said about
[00:13:58] The new Irvin Welsh
[00:13:59] Series that's on
[00:14:00] Has anybody seen it
[00:14:01] The Irvin Welsh
[00:14:02] Crime series
[00:14:03] That's on just now
[00:14:04] And they said
[00:14:05] There's three DIs
[00:14:07] Detective inspectors
[00:14:08] Vying
[00:14:08] For promotion
[00:14:09] To
[00:14:10] Chief Super
[00:14:11] Or superintendent
[00:14:11] Or something like that
[00:14:12] Which is obviously
[00:14:13] Nonsense
[00:14:13] To jump three ranks
[00:14:14] And I wanna
[00:14:15] But they said
[00:14:16] I'm surprised that
[00:14:17] Irvin Welsh
[00:14:17] Making an error
[00:14:18] Like that
[00:14:19] And what I tried
[00:14:20] To convey to them
[00:14:21] Was that Irvin Welsh
[00:14:22] Loses all editorial
[00:14:23] Control of the thing
[00:14:24] Once he sells
[00:14:25] The rights to it
[00:14:26] Is that right?
[00:14:26] Oh yeah
[00:14:27] Absolutely
[00:14:27] Once you sign
[00:14:28] The rights over
[00:14:29] Of a book
[00:14:30] You lose control
[00:14:31] And I'm very grateful
[00:14:33] That actually
[00:14:34] Small town dicks
[00:14:35] Have been very
[00:14:36] Very good
[00:14:36] And have stuck
[00:14:36] To the story
[00:14:37] Very well
[00:14:38] But you do
[00:14:39] You do lose control
[00:14:40] And if you're ever
[00:14:41] In an audience
[00:14:42] With Ian Rankin
[00:14:43] Or Val McDermott
[00:14:44] They'll tell you that
[00:14:45] They'll say
[00:14:46] Once you sign
[00:14:46] On the dotted line
[00:14:47] You've lost it
[00:14:48] I think I read
[00:14:49] That Ian Rankin
[00:14:49] Doesn't watch
[00:14:50] Any of the televised
[00:14:52] Or film
[00:14:53] Or anything like that
[00:14:54] Because he thinks
[00:14:54] It would taint
[00:14:55] His imagination
[00:14:57] As far as
[00:14:58] Rebus is concerned
[00:14:59] And he doesn't
[00:15:00] Watch the made up
[00:15:01] Stuff
[00:15:01] Because it's fictional
[00:15:02] At the end of the day
[00:15:02] And he wants to keep
[00:15:03] His idea of Rebus
[00:15:05] When you write
[00:15:05] About a character
[00:15:07] You've got a voice
[00:15:08] In your head
[00:15:09] And you've got a vision
[00:15:10] Of what that person
[00:15:11] Looks like
[00:15:12] And it's very
[00:15:14] Very unusual
[00:15:14] That anybody else's
[00:15:16] Interpretation
[00:15:16] Serious
[00:15:17] I was going to say
[00:15:18] As a former
[00:15:20] Crime reporter
[00:15:20] Always been asked
[00:15:21] To write books
[00:15:22] Why I didn't write
[00:15:23] A fiction book
[00:15:24] And I did resist
[00:15:25] Because it's difficult
[00:15:26] When you're actually
[00:15:27] Working day to day
[00:15:29] On cases
[00:15:30] To you know
[00:15:31] Come up with something
[00:15:32] Fictionalised
[00:15:33] In your head
[00:15:34] And you know
[00:15:34] People go
[00:15:35] Well I wouldn't
[00:15:35] Believe that
[00:15:36] You know
[00:15:36] It is difficult
[00:15:37] And I was always
[00:15:38] Worried about
[00:15:38] Doing a fiction book
[00:15:40] In case I was drawn
[00:15:41] From you know
[00:15:42] Years of history
[00:15:43] The mantra
[00:15:44] Of Crime Time Inc
[00:15:45] Is really what Tom
[00:15:46] Came up with
[00:15:47] Right at the very beginning
[00:15:48] When we talked about
[00:15:50] Fictional
[00:15:51] Historical fiction
[00:15:52] And what not
[00:15:52] He said that
[00:15:53] Truth is
[00:15:54] Always going to
[00:15:55] Trump fiction
[00:15:56] It's much stranger
[00:15:57] Much more bizarre
[00:15:58] And ultimately
[00:16:00] Much more fascinating
[00:16:01] To us than any
[00:16:02] Fiction could be
[00:16:03] I think that's right
[00:16:04] And you just need
[00:16:05] To look at the
[00:16:06] Ruxton case
[00:16:06] You could not
[00:16:08] Make up
[00:16:08] You could not
[00:16:10] Make up
[00:16:10] Some of the
[00:16:10] Characters that
[00:16:11] Emerged from that
[00:16:12] For their
[00:16:13] Eccentricity
[00:16:14] And what they did
[00:16:15] Both good and bad
[00:16:17] Let's get back
[00:16:18] To Ruxton
[00:16:18] You describe it
[00:16:20] As the first
[00:16:21] Modern murder
[00:16:22] Can you
[00:16:22] Tell us
[00:16:23] What you mean
[00:16:24] By that
[00:16:24] In terms of
[00:16:25] Forensics
[00:16:26] Crime scene
[00:16:28] Protection
[00:16:28] Locust protection
[00:16:29] Okay
[00:16:30] Before the Ruxton case
[00:16:32] Crime scene management
[00:16:33] Was unknown
[00:16:34] And forensic science
[00:16:36] Was the kind of
[00:16:37] Icing on the cake
[00:16:38] For some big forces
[00:16:40] What Ruxton did
[00:16:42] Was it
[00:16:42] Mainstreamed
[00:16:43] Forensic science
[00:16:44] And criminal investigation
[00:16:45] And following the Ruxton case
[00:16:47] It was so notorious
[00:16:48] That every police force
[00:16:50] Had to set up
[00:16:51] Detective training
[00:16:52] It was the first time
[00:16:52] That detectives were trained
[00:16:54] In crime scene management
[00:16:55] And forensic recovery
[00:16:57] It also championed
[00:16:59] The science
[00:16:59] Of forensic entomology
[00:17:01] Dermal fingerprinting
[00:17:02] And facial superimposition
[00:17:04] And you see the front cover
[00:17:05] Of the book there
[00:17:06] Is the clinching piece
[00:17:08] Of evidence
[00:17:09] Because they couldn't
[00:17:10] Identify the skull
[00:17:11] So what they did
[00:17:12] Was they superimposed
[00:17:13] The skull they had
[00:17:15] Across a portrait
[00:17:17] Of Bella Ruxton
[00:17:19] And the scientists
[00:17:21] And the lawyers
[00:17:22] Thought well
[00:17:23] Looks quite impressive
[00:17:24] But so what
[00:17:25] But the jury
[00:17:26] The jury
[00:17:27] Thought it was
[00:17:28] Absolutely convincing
[00:17:29] And of course
[00:17:30] That's important
[00:17:31] And Simon and I
[00:17:31] Have spoken about that
[00:17:32] Because
[00:17:32] Just because we
[00:17:34] The detectives
[00:17:35] And the forensic scientists
[00:17:36] And the lawyers
[00:17:37] Think a piece of evidence
[00:17:39] Is not convincing
[00:17:41] It doesn't matter
[00:17:42] What we think
[00:17:43] It's the jury
[00:17:44] That are important
[00:17:45] And sometimes
[00:17:46] The things we think
[00:17:47] Are important
[00:17:48] Don't really appeal
[00:17:49] To the jury
[00:17:49] And in the case of this
[00:17:51] It absolutely clinched
[00:17:53] The ID of Bella Ruxton
[00:17:55] Can you tell us
[00:17:56] How the techniques
[00:17:57] Used in Ruxton
[00:17:58] Might have assisted
[00:17:59] The first inquiry team
[00:18:01] With the world's end
[00:18:03] Crime scene management
[00:18:04] Crime scene approach
[00:18:05] When you look at
[00:18:05] The approach
[00:18:06] To the crime scene
[00:18:07] In 1977
[00:18:08] It was careful
[00:18:09] It was fastidious
[00:18:10] They picked
[00:18:11] Every piece of evidence
[00:18:12] Up and they
[00:18:13] Carefully preserved it
[00:18:14] Now that's right out
[00:18:16] Of the Ruxton playbook
[00:18:17] And the forensic scientist
[00:18:19] In charge of that
[00:18:20] Was a Glasgow man
[00:18:21] John Glacester
[00:18:22] Very famous man
[00:18:23] Professor Glacester
[00:18:23] Junior
[00:18:24] Glasgow University
[00:18:25] Who was really
[00:18:27] The father
[00:18:27] Of modern crime scene
[00:18:29] Management
[00:18:30] And it
[00:18:31] Greatly
[00:18:32] Irks me
[00:18:33] That he's not
[00:18:34] Better remembered
[00:18:36] And not spoken
[00:18:37] About
[00:18:37] Now
[00:18:38] Because
[00:18:39] Quite
[00:18:40] Recently
[00:18:41] The small town
[00:18:42] Decks approached
[00:18:43] Glasgow University
[00:18:44] And said
[00:18:45] You know
[00:18:45] Talk about
[00:18:46] John Glacester
[00:18:46] And they went
[00:18:47] Well yeah
[00:18:47] He was a forensic
[00:18:48] Scientist here
[00:18:48] In the 1930s
[00:18:50] So what
[00:18:52] So what
[00:18:53] He was the
[00:18:53] Absolute father
[00:18:55] Of modern
[00:18:56] Crime scene management
[00:18:57] And
[00:18:58] One of the things
[00:18:59] I like to do
[00:18:59] In my writing
[00:19:01] Is to draw
[00:19:02] These people
[00:19:02] Back out
[00:19:03] Into the light
[00:19:04] And to give them
[00:19:05] The credit
[00:19:05] For things they've done
[00:19:06] Because all history
[00:19:07] Is partial
[00:19:08] Some people
[00:19:09] Are forgotten
[00:19:09] Some people
[00:19:10] Are given credit
[00:19:11] For things they
[00:19:12] Didn't do
[00:19:12] And so it's
[00:19:14] Interesting
[00:19:14] I find it
[00:19:15] Interesting
[00:19:15] To actually
[00:19:16] Apportion credit
[00:19:17] Where it's due
[00:19:18] So it was
[00:19:18] Hugely influential
[00:19:19] On modern
[00:19:20] Crime scene management
[00:19:21] So I think
[00:19:22] Simon touched
[00:19:23] On it briefly
[00:19:23] Earlier
[00:19:24] But Tom's
[00:19:26] Actually had
[00:19:26] Quite a lot
[00:19:27] Of success
[00:19:27] With the
[00:19:28] Ruckston book
[00:19:29] What was it
[00:19:30] You said
[00:19:30] That we are
[00:19:31] The little
[00:19:31] People now
[00:19:32] Because of
[00:19:32] The
[00:19:33] Billy Big
[00:19:34] Shorts
[00:19:34] Billy Big
[00:19:35] Boots
[00:19:35] Yeah
[00:19:36] Billy Big
[00:19:36] Boots
[00:19:37] Is that it
[00:19:37] I never said
[00:19:38] That to his face
[00:19:39] Now you're
[00:19:40] Putting me
[00:19:40] Really in a
[00:19:40] Position here
[00:19:43] It's great
[00:19:43] That you still
[00:19:45] Mix with us
[00:19:46] Tom
[00:19:46] Thanks for that
[00:19:47] You still talk
[00:19:48] To us minions
[00:19:49] It's just luck
[00:19:50] It's just luck
[00:19:51] I've written
[00:19:52] Stuff
[00:19:53] Every bit
[00:19:53] As good as
[00:19:54] Ruckston
[00:19:54] And sometimes
[00:19:55] It lands
[00:19:55] And sometimes
[00:19:56] It doesn't
[00:19:56] And you don't
[00:19:57] Know
[00:19:57] It's actually
[00:19:58] A feature
[00:19:59] Of why we
[00:19:59] Do this
[00:20:00] Jane
[00:20:01] Because we've
[00:20:02] Both been on
[00:20:02] The media
[00:20:02] When I wrote
[00:20:03] My book
[00:20:04] And with
[00:20:04] Leap
[00:20:04] That I
[00:20:05] Represent
[00:20:05] We get
[00:20:06] Asked by
[00:20:07] The media
[00:20:07] Radio Scotland
[00:20:08] I was on
[00:20:08] Radio Scotland
[00:20:09] On Tuesday
[00:20:09] And they
[00:20:10] Cut me off
[00:20:10] At every
[00:20:10] Opportunity
[00:20:11] They're only
[00:20:12] Interested
[00:20:12] In their
[00:20:13] Agenda
[00:20:13] Really
[00:20:13] And they're
[00:20:14] Very restricted
[00:20:15] Time wise
[00:20:16] So you never
[00:20:17] Get to say
[00:20:17] What you
[00:20:18] Really want
[00:20:18] To see
[00:20:18] You never get
[00:20:19] To do
[00:20:19] What Tom
[00:20:21] And go
[00:20:21] Into the
[00:20:22] Nuances
[00:20:22] Of a
[00:20:23] Case
[00:20:23] And look
[00:20:23] At the
[00:20:23] Characters
[00:20:24] The unrecognised
[00:20:25] People
[00:20:26] For some
[00:20:26] Of Tom's
[00:20:26] Stories
[00:20:27] You know
[00:20:28] Like
[00:20:28] Violet
[00:20:28] Vanderelske
[00:20:29] And gentle
[00:20:31] Johnny
[00:20:31] Raminski
[00:20:32] And people
[00:20:32] Like that
[00:20:33] They've been
[00:20:33] Ignored now
[00:20:34] Since their
[00:20:35] Day
[00:20:35] But we
[00:20:36] We get
[00:20:36] To bring
[00:20:37] That out
[00:20:37] Between
[00:20:37] Us
[00:20:38] Hopefully
[00:20:38] In a
[00:20:39] Good
[00:20:39] Way
[00:20:40] Let's
[00:20:41] Finish on
[00:20:41] Ruxton
[00:20:42] Just let
[00:20:42] The audience
[00:20:43] Know
[00:20:43] What's
[00:20:44] Happening
[00:20:45] With that
[00:20:45] In terms
[00:20:46] Of
[00:20:46] America
[00:20:47] And
[00:20:47] Small
[00:20:48] Town
[00:20:48] Well
[00:20:49] Very
[00:20:49] Fortunately
[00:20:49] The rights
[00:20:50] Have been
[00:20:50] Bought
[00:20:51] By
[00:20:51] Small
[00:20:51] Town
[00:20:52] Dicks
[00:20:52] Which is
[00:20:52] An American
[00:20:53] True crime
[00:20:54] Podcast
[00:20:54] Which is
[00:20:54] Well worth
[00:20:55] Listening to
[00:20:55] And they've
[00:20:56] Just brought
[00:20:56] Out a
[00:20:57] Six part
[00:20:57] Podcast
[00:20:58] Called
[00:20:59] Beyond
[00:20:59] Recognition
[00:21:00] Which is
[00:21:01] Excellent
[00:21:01] And I
[00:21:03] Was saying
[00:21:03] Earlier
[00:21:03] That you
[00:21:04] Know
[00:21:04] You're
[00:21:04] Always
[00:21:04] In fear
[00:21:05] When your
[00:21:05] Book is
[00:21:06] Taken
[00:21:06] Away
[00:21:06] And
[00:21:07] Given
[00:21:07] An
[00:21:07] Additional
[00:21:08] Treatment
[00:21:08] Of what
[00:21:09] They're
[00:21:09] Going to
[00:21:09] Do
[00:21:09] With it
[00:21:09] Are
[00:21:10] The accents
[00:21:10] Going to
[00:21:11] Be some
[00:21:12] Spammy
[00:21:12] American
[00:21:13] Version
[00:21:13] Of
[00:21:14] Scottish
[00:21:14] Or
[00:21:15] Worse
[00:21:15] Still
[00:21:15] Could
[00:21:16] They be
[00:21:16] Glasgow
[00:21:16] Accents
[00:21:17] That would
[00:21:19] Be
[00:21:19] The end
[00:21:19] Of the
[00:21:19] World
[00:21:21] But I
[00:21:21] Have to
[00:21:21] Say
[00:21:21] They've
[00:21:22] Done
[00:21:22] A very
[00:21:22] Good
[00:21:22] Job
[00:21:22] And
[00:21:23] I
[00:21:23] Thoroughly
[00:21:23] Recommend
[00:21:24] The
[00:21:24] Podcast
[00:21:24] And
[00:21:25] It
[00:21:32] Parts
[00:21:32] And
[00:21:32] I'm
[00:21:32] Looking
[00:21:33] For
[00:21:33] A
[00:21:34] Dismembered
[00:21:34] Body
[00:21:35] And
[00:21:35] Jane
[00:21:38] Why
[00:21:38] Are you
[00:21:38] In
[00:21:38] Me
[00:21:38] No
[00:21:39] I
[00:21:39] Just
[00:21:41] It's
[00:21:42] Your
[00:21:42] Chance
[00:21:42] To
[00:21:42] Star
[00:21:44] So
[00:21:45] Ruxan
[00:21:45] Is
[00:21:45] Doing
[00:21:45] Very
[00:21:46] Well
[00:21:46] And
[00:21:46] I'm
[00:21:46] Very
[00:21:46] Pleased
[00:21:47] With
[00:21:47] It
[00:21:47] And
[00:21:47] I'm
[00:21:47] Very
[00:21:47] Lucky
[00:21:48] But
[00:21:48] I'll
[00:21:48] Not
[00:21:48] Doing
[00:21:49] Very
[00:21:49] Well
[00:21:49] In
[00:21:49] Glasgow
[00:21:50] Now
[00:21:50] I
[00:21:50] Can
[00:21:50] Assure
[00:21:50] You
[00:21:51] That
[00:21:52] Well
[00:21:53] It
[00:21:53] Should
[00:21:53] Be
[00:21:53] Because
[00:21:54] You'll
[00:21:55] Read
[00:21:55] All
[00:21:56] About
[00:21:56] Professor
[00:21:56] John
[00:21:57] Glacester
[00:21:58] And
[00:21:58] He
[00:21:58] Should
[00:21:59] Be
[00:21:59] One
[00:21:59] Of
[00:21:59] Glasgow's
[00:22:00] Heroes
[00:22:00] And
[00:22:01] Of
[00:22:01] course
[00:22:02] We
[00:22:02] Shouldn't
[00:22:02] Mention
[00:22:02] Any
[00:22:03] Of
[00:22:03] That
[00:22:03] And
[00:22:04] Shouldn't
[00:22:04] Hold
[00:22:04] An
[00:22:04] Event
[00:22:05] Like
[00:22:05] This
[00:22:05] Without
[00:22:06] Mentioning
[00:22:06] Percy
[00:22:07] Sillito
[00:22:07] Because
[00:22:08] He
[00:22:08] Was
[00:22:08] Behind
[00:22:09] All
[00:22:09] Of
[00:22:09] That
[00:22:09] Change
[00:22:10] He
[00:22:10] Facilitated
[00:22:11] All
[00:22:11] Of
[00:22:11] That
[00:22:11] Change
[00:22:12] Tom
[00:22:12] And
[00:22:12] Your
[00:22:12] Episode
[00:22:13] On
[00:22:13] I
[00:22:14] Think
[00:22:14] That
[00:22:14] Might
[00:22:14] Be
[00:22:14] Your
[00:22:14] Next
[00:22:14] Book
[00:22:15] Actually
[00:22:15] Not
[00:22:15] I
[00:22:15] Want
[00:22:16] To
[00:22:16] Put
[00:22:16] Words
[00:22:16] In
[00:22:16] Your
[00:22:16] Mouth
[00:22:17] But
[00:22:17] It
[00:22:17] Is
[00:22:17] A
[00:22:17] Great
[00:22:18] Story
[00:22:18] Isn't
[00:22:18] It
[00:22:19] On
[00:22:19] Every
[00:22:19] Aspect
[00:22:19] Of
[00:22:20] Percy's
[00:22:20] Work
[00:22:20] Yeah
[00:22:21] Percy
[00:22:21] Sillito
[00:22:22] Was
[00:22:22] The
[00:22:22] Chief
[00:22:22] Constable
[00:22:23] Here
[00:22:23] In
[00:22:23] Glasgow
[00:22:23] From
[00:22:25] 1934
[00:22:26] To
[00:22:27] 1943
[00:22:29] And
[00:22:44] He
[00:22:44] He
[00:22:45] An
[00:22:45] Intelligence
[00:22:45] Officer
[00:22:46] In
[00:22:46] Tanganyika
[00:22:47] He
[00:22:48] Comes
[00:22:48] Back
[00:22:48] To
[00:22:48] Britain
[00:22:49] He
[00:22:49] Is
[00:22:49] The
[00:22:50] Chief
[00:22:50] Constable
[00:22:50] Of
[00:22:51] Sheffield
[00:22:51] He
[00:22:52] Breaks
[00:22:52] Up
[00:22:52] The
[00:22:52] Gangs
[00:22:53] There
[00:22:53] Including
[00:22:53] The
[00:22:54] Famous
[00:22:54] Peaky
[00:22:54] Blinders
[00:22:55] Much
[00:22:56] Of
[00:22:56] Which
[00:22:56] Is
[00:22:56] Fictionalized
[00:22:57] Comes
[00:22:58] To
[00:22:58] Glasgow
[00:22:58] Breaks
[00:22:59] Up The
[00:22:59] Razor
[00:23:00] Gangs
[00:23:00] And Then
[00:23:01] Establishes
[00:23:02] The
[00:23:02] Forensic
[00:23:02] Model The Glasgow Fingerprints
[00:23:04] Bureau
[00:23:05] Which Led The
[00:23:05] World
[00:23:06] And
[00:23:06] Became
[00:23:06] The SCRO
[00:23:07] Women
[00:23:08] In
[00:23:08] The
[00:23:08] Police
[00:23:09] Service
[00:23:09] The
[00:23:10] Police Box
[00:23:10] System
[00:23:11] Radios
[00:23:11] He
[00:23:12] Does
[00:23:12] All
[00:23:12] Of
[00:23:12] That
[00:23:13] He
[00:23:14] Also
[00:23:14] Blends
[00:23:16] His
[00:23:16] Senior Detectives
[00:23:17] Very
[00:23:17] Fine
[00:23:17] Detectives
[00:23:18] At
[00:23:18] That
[00:23:18] Time
[00:23:19] There
[00:23:19] Were
[00:23:19] Fine
[00:23:19] Detectives
[00:23:20] In
[00:23:20] Glasgow
[00:23:21] That
[00:23:22] All
[00:23:23] Stopped
[00:23:23] In
[00:23:24] The
[00:23:24] 1970s
[00:23:25] After
[00:23:25] Me
[00:23:26] But
[00:23:27] He
[00:23:27] Loaned
[00:23:28] Them
[00:23:28] To
[00:23:28] De
[00:23:28] Free
[00:23:28] St.
[00:23:28] Galloway
[00:23:29] To
[00:23:29] Investigate
[00:23:30] The
[00:23:30] Ruxon
[00:23:30] Case
[00:23:30] He
[00:23:31] Then
[00:23:31] Goes
[00:23:31] On
[00:23:32] To
[00:23:32] Include
[00:23:33] The
[00:23:33] Universities
[00:23:34] He
[00:23:34] Gets
[00:23:34] John
[00:23:35] Glaister
[00:23:35] Involved
[00:23:35] After
[00:23:36] The
[00:23:37] Police
[00:23:37] It
[00:23:37] Is
[00:23:37] Even
[00:23:37] More
[00:23:38] Remarkable
[00:23:38] He
[00:23:39] Becomes
[00:23:39] The
[00:23:40] Head
[00:23:40] Of
[00:23:40] MI5
[00:23:41] After
[00:23:41] The
[00:23:41] War
[00:23:42] The
[00:23:42] Home
[00:23:42] Security
[00:23:43] Service
[00:23:43] And
[00:23:44] His
[00:23:44] Last
[00:23:44] Job
[00:23:45] Was
[00:23:46] Hunting
[00:23:46] Down
[00:23:46] Diamond
[00:23:47] Smugglers
[00:23:47] In
[00:23:48] Sierra Leone
[00:23:48] And
[00:23:49] That
[00:23:49] Story
[00:23:50] Gave
[00:23:51] Rise
[00:23:51] To
[00:23:52] A
[00:23:52] Book
[00:23:52] Called
[00:23:53] The
[00:23:53] Diamond
[00:23:53] Hunters
[00:23:54] Which
[00:23:55] Became
[00:23:56] Diamonds
[00:23:56] Are
[00:23:56] Forever
[00:23:57] The
[00:23:57] James
[00:23:58] Bond
[00:23:58] Thriller
[00:23:58] So
[00:23:59] From
[00:24:00] A
[00:24:00] Choir
[00:24:00] Boy
[00:24:00] At
[00:24:00] St.
[00:24:01] Paul's
[00:24:01] Cathedral
[00:24:02] Via
[00:24:03] Chief
[00:24:03] Constable
[00:24:03] of
[00:24:03] Glasgow
[00:24:04] to
[00:24:04] James
[00:24:04] Bond
[00:24:05] That's
[00:24:06] The
[00:24:06] Life
[00:24:06] Of
[00:24:06] Percy
[00:24:07] Sillito
[00:24:07] You
[00:24:07] Could
[00:24:08] Not
[00:24:08] Make
[00:24:09] That
[00:24:09] Up
[00:24:09] And
[00:24:10] That
[00:24:10] Wee
[00:24:10] Band
[00:24:11] That
[00:24:11] Goes
[00:24:11] On
[00:24:11] The
[00:24:11] Police
[00:24:12] Hats
[00:24:12] He
[00:24:12] Did
[00:24:12] That
[00:24:12] As
[00:24:13] Well
[00:24:13] And
[00:24:13] The
[00:24:13] Thing
[00:24:13] Is
[00:24:14] He's
[00:24:14] Remembered
[00:24:15] Most
[00:24:15] For
[00:24:16] Introducing
[00:24:17] The
[00:24:17] Czech
[00:24:17] Police
[00:24:18] Band
[00:24:18] Sillito
[00:24:19] Is
[00:24:19] Tartan
[00:24:19] If
[00:24:19] You
[00:24:36] He
[00:24:37] Should
[00:24:37] He
[00:24:37] Should
[00:24:37] Be
[00:24:37] A
[00:24:37] Standing
[00:24:37] With
[00:24:38] His
[00:24:38] Foot
[00:24:38] On
[00:24:38] The
[00:24:39] Neck
[00:24:39] Of
[00:24:39] Simon
[00:24:39] McClain
[00:24:43] Right
[00:24:44] They've
[00:24:44] Gone
[00:24:44] Totally
[00:24:44] Off
[00:24:45] Script
[00:24:45] Now
[00:24:45] My
[00:24:45] Head
[00:24:46] Is
[00:24:46] Completely
[00:24:47] Fried
[00:24:47] Here
[00:24:49] So
[00:24:50] Are we
[00:24:50] Do you
[00:24:50] Want to
[00:24:50] Talk
[00:24:51] About
[00:24:51] The
[00:24:52] World's
[00:24:52] End
[00:24:52] Or
[00:24:52] Do you
[00:24:52] Want to
[00:24:53] Talk
[00:24:53] About
[00:24:53] The
[00:24:53] Ten
[00:24:53] Percent
[00:24:54] Because
[00:24:54] You
[00:24:54] Two
[00:24:55] Have
[00:24:55] Just
[00:24:55] Well
[00:24:55] I
[00:24:55] Know
[00:24:55] What
[00:24:56] I
[00:24:56] Want
[00:24:56] To
[00:24:56] Talk
[00:24:56] About
[00:24:58] Go
[00:24:59] On
[00:25:00] What
[00:25:01] Do you
[00:25:01] Want
[00:25:01] Know
[00:25:01] Jane
[00:25:01] Let's
[00:25:02] Talk
[00:25:02] About
[00:25:02] The
[00:25:02] Ten
[00:25:02] Percent
[00:25:03] Tell
[00:25:03] Us
[00:25:04] What
[00:25:04] It's
[00:25:04] About
[00:25:05] Okay
[00:25:06] Before
[00:25:07] I
[00:25:07] Do
[00:25:07] That
[00:25:07] And
[00:25:08] Just
[00:25:08] In
[00:25:08] Case
[00:25:08] I
[00:25:09] Forget
[00:25:09] It
[00:25:09] Was
[00:25:10] Dedicated
[00:25:10] To
[00:25:10] My
[00:25:10] Daughter
[00:25:11] Louise
[00:25:11] Who
[00:25:12] Died
[00:25:12] Of
[00:25:13] Cystic
[00:25:13] Fibrosis
[00:25:13] In
[00:25:14] 2011
[00:25:14] So
[00:25:15] That's
[00:25:16] What
[00:25:16] Motivated
[00:25:17] It
[00:25:17] Really
[00:25:17] And
[00:25:18] I
[00:25:18] Don't
[00:25:18] Know
[00:25:18] About
[00:25:19] Tom
[00:25:19] I've
[00:25:19] Never
[00:25:19] Really
[00:25:19] Spoke
[00:25:20] To
[00:25:20] Tom
[00:25:20] About
[00:25:20] His
[00:25:21] Writing
[00:25:21] In
[00:25:21] Particular
[00:25:22] What
[00:25:23] Motivated
[00:25:23] It
[00:25:23] And
[00:25:23] What
[00:25:24] Got
[00:25:24] Started
[00:25:24] But
[00:25:25] We
[00:25:25] Mentioned
[00:25:26] The
[00:25:26] Publisher
[00:25:26] Ringwood
[00:25:27] Publishing
[00:25:27] That
[00:25:27] Your
[00:25:28] Books
[00:25:28] Are
[00:25:28] Still
[00:25:28] On
[00:25:28] Tom
[00:25:29] And
[00:25:30] Really
[00:25:30] It
[00:25:30] Was
[00:25:30] Sandy
[00:25:30] Jimmison
[00:25:31] Of
[00:25:31] Ringwood
[00:25:31] Publishing
[00:25:32] Who
[00:25:33] Encouraged
[00:25:33] Me
[00:25:33] Because
[00:25:34] All
[00:25:34] I
[00:25:34] Did
[00:25:34] Was
[00:25:35] Tell
[00:25:35] Stories
[00:25:35] And
[00:25:36] When
[00:25:36] I
[00:25:36] First
[00:25:36] Met
[00:25:37] Sandy
[00:25:37] It
[00:25:52] That
[00:25:52] So
[00:26:00] I
[00:26:01] Would
[00:26:09] Encourage
[00:26:14] Everyone
[00:26:14] To
[00:26:15] Write
[00:26:15] Down
[00:26:15] Your
[00:26:15] Thoughts
[00:26:16] Because
[00:26:16] What
[00:26:16] Motivated
[00:26:17] Me
[00:26:17] Really
[00:26:17] At
[00:26:17] The
[00:26:18] Time
[00:26:20] Somewhere
[00:26:21] That
[00:26:21] Will
[00:26:21] Survive
[00:26:22] Me
[00:26:23] A
[00:26:23] Record
[00:26:24] Of
[00:26:24] What
[00:26:24] Had
[00:26:24] Gone
[00:26:25] On
[00:26:25] In
[00:26:25] Those
[00:26:25] Days
[00:26:25] Because
[00:26:26] Policing
[00:26:26] Was
[00:26:27] So
[00:26:27] Different
[00:26:27] In
[00:26:28] 1978
[00:26:28] And
[00:26:29] The
[00:26:29] 80s
[00:26:29] Crime
[00:26:30] Was
[00:26:30] So
[00:26:31] Different
[00:26:31] Everything
[00:26:32] Has
[00:26:32] Changed
[00:26:32] Tom
[00:26:33] Says
[00:26:33] We
[00:26:34] Didn't
[00:26:34] Know
[00:26:34] What
[00:26:34] We
[00:27:20] This
[00:27:21] As
[00:27:21] We
[00:27:21] Go
[00:27:21] On
[00:27:21] Today
[00:27:22] Is
[00:27:22] The
[00:27:22] Things
[00:27:23] That
[00:27:23] Are
[00:27:23] Not
[00:27:23] Generally
[00:27:24] Acceptable
[00:27:25] Or
[00:27:25] Talked
[00:27:26] About
[00:27:26] That
[00:27:26] The
[00:27:26] Police
[00:27:27] Have
[00:27:27] To
[00:27:27] Do
[00:27:27] Down
[00:27:28] At
[00:27:28] The
[00:27:28] Coal
[00:27:28] Face
[00:27:28] Where
[00:27:29] They
[00:27:29] Come
[00:27:29] To
[00:27:30] Face
[00:27:30] With
[00:27:30] The
[00:27:30] Criminal
[00:27:31] World
[00:27:31] Who
[00:27:32] Don't
[00:27:32] Have
[00:27:32] Any
[00:27:32] Rules
[00:27:33] Or
[00:27:33] Any
[00:27:34] Sanctions
[00:27:34] Or
[00:27:35] Any
[00:27:35] Consideration
[00:27:36] For
[00:27:37] You
[00:27:37] And
[00:27:37] I
[00:27:37] Moving
[00:27:38] Forward
[00:27:38] And
[00:27:38] Somewhere
[00:27:39] The
[00:27:39] Police
[00:27:39] Have
[00:27:39] To
[00:27:40] Meet
[00:27:40] That
[00:27:40] Line
[00:27:40] And
[00:27:41] That
[00:27:41] Was
[00:27:41] The
[00:27:42] Bottom
[00:27:42] 10%
[00:27:43] That
[00:27:43] I
[00:27:43] Referred
[00:27:43] To
[00:27:44] In
[00:27:44] My
[00:27:44] Book
[00:27:44] That's
[00:27:44] Why
[00:27:44] It
[00:28:08] Was
[00:28:08] I
[00:28:09] Was
[00:28:10] Still
[00:28:10] In
[00:28:10] Strathclyde
[00:28:10] At
[00:28:11] The
[00:28:11] Time
[00:28:11] And
[00:28:12] I
[00:28:12] Don't
[00:28:12] Know
[00:28:12] Who
[00:28:12] Remember
[00:28:13] In
[00:28:13] This
[00:28:13] Room
[00:28:13] If
[00:28:14] You
[00:28:14] Don't
[00:28:14] You
[00:28:14] Should
[00:28:14] Know
[00:28:15] That
[00:28:15] In
[00:28:15] The
[00:28:16] 80s
[00:28:16] Football
[00:28:17] Had
[00:28:18] Big
[00:28:18] Big
[00:28:18] Problems
[00:28:19] Europe
[00:28:19] Wide
[00:28:20] Maybe
[00:28:20] Further
[00:28:21] Afilled
[00:28:21] With
[00:28:21] Julianism
[00:28:22] And
[00:28:23] What
[00:28:23] We
[00:28:23] Called
[00:28:23] Casuals
[00:28:24] At
[00:28:24] The
[00:28:24] Time
[00:28:24] Lots
[00:28:25] Of
[00:28:25] Names
[00:28:25] For
[00:28:26] Them
[00:28:26] And
[00:28:26] Hibernian
[00:28:27] Being
[00:28:27] From
[00:28:27] Edinburgh
[00:28:28] You
[00:28:28] Can
[00:28:28] Imagine
[00:28:28] They
[00:28:29] Were
[00:28:29] The
[00:28:29] Worst
[00:28:29] Of
[00:28:29] The
[00:28:29] Lot
[00:28:30] You
[00:28:30] Know
[00:28:30] We
[00:28:31] Didn't
[00:28:31] Even
[00:28:31] Understand
[00:28:32] What
[00:28:32] They
[00:28:32] Were
[00:28:32] Saying
[00:28:32] Half
[00:28:33] The
[00:28:33] Time
[00:28:33] That
[00:28:34] Was
[00:28:34] Part
[00:28:34] Of
[00:28:34] The
[00:28:34] Problem
[00:28:35] But
[00:28:36] And
[00:28:36] They
[00:28:36] Would
[00:28:36] Come
[00:28:36] Through
[00:28:37] Here
[00:28:37] And
[00:28:37] Their
[00:28:37] So
[00:28:37] Intention
[00:28:38] These
[00:28:38] People
[00:28:39] Was
[00:28:39] To
[00:28:39] Cause
[00:28:39] To
[00:28:41] Steal
[00:28:41] They
[00:28:41] Would
[00:28:42] Mob
[00:28:42] Handed
[00:28:42] Go
[00:28:43] Into
[00:29:11] Licensed
[00:29:11] Criminal
[00:29:12] Action
[00:29:12] They
[00:29:12] Were
[00:29:13] Up
[00:29:13] To
[00:29:13] So
[00:29:14] We
[00:29:14] Were
[00:29:14] Dealing
[00:29:14] With
[00:29:14] All
[00:29:15] That
[00:29:15] And
[00:29:15] We
[00:29:15] Had
[00:29:15] To
[00:29:15] Infiltrate
[00:29:16] And
[00:29:17] I
[00:29:17] Suppose
[00:29:17] It
[00:29:41] And
[00:29:42] The
[00:29:42] Other
[00:29:42] Two
[00:29:42] Or
[00:29:43] Three
[00:29:43] Plain
[00:29:43] Closed
[00:29:43] Officers
[00:29:44] That
[00:29:44] Were
[00:29:44] In
[00:29:44] There
[00:29:45] And
[00:29:45] I
[00:29:45] Remember
[00:29:45] I
[00:29:46] Still
[00:29:46] Was
[00:29:46] Brought
[00:29:47] From
[00:29:47] It
[00:29:47] Mr
[00:29:48] McIntyre
[00:29:48] Showed
[00:29:49] Me
[00:29:49] And
[00:29:49] He
[00:29:49] Said
[00:29:49] Simon
[00:29:50] I
[00:29:50] Want
[00:29:50] To
[00:29:50] Show
[00:29:50] You
[00:29:50] A
[00:29:50] Picture
[00:29:51] From
[00:29:51] Saturday
[00:29:51] And
[00:29:52] I
[00:29:52] Thought
[00:29:52] He
[00:29:52] Was
[00:29:52] Going
[00:29:52] To
[00:29:53] Ask
[00:29:53] Me
[00:29:53] To
[00:29:53] Identify
[00:29:54] Someone
[00:29:54] In
[00:29:54] The
[00:29:54] Crowd
[00:29:55] And
[00:29:55] Tell
[00:29:55] Me
[00:29:55] This
[00:29:55] Is
[00:29:56] A
[00:29:56] Bad
[00:29:56] Guy
[00:29:56] Should
[00:29:57] Keep
[00:29:57] An
[00:29:57] Eye
[00:29:57] On
[00:30:11] I
[00:30:12] Was
[00:30:12] Coming
[00:30:12] Out
[00:30:13] One
[00:30:13] Day
[00:30:13] And
[00:30:14] I
[00:30:14] Was
[00:30:14] With
[00:30:14] The
[00:30:15] Casuals
[00:30:15] I
[00:30:15] Had
[00:30:16] To
[00:30:16] Go
[00:30:16] Back
[00:30:16] On
[00:30:16] The
[00:30:16] Bus
[00:30:16] With
[00:30:17] Them
[00:30:17] I
[00:30:17] Used
[00:30:17] To
[00:30:18] Get
[00:30:19] Dropped
[00:30:19] Off
[00:30:19] In
[00:30:19] Edinburgh
[00:30:19] On
[00:30:20] Saturday
[00:30:20] Morning
[00:30:21] And
[00:30:21] Come
[00:30:21] Through
[00:30:22] With
[00:30:22] Them
[00:30:22] On
[00:30:22] The
[00:30:22] Bus
[00:30:23] Over
[00:30:23] A
[00:30:23] Period
[00:30:24] Of
[00:30:24] A
[00:30:24] Few
[00:30:24] Seasons
[00:30:24] That
[00:30:25] Built
[00:30:38] up
[00:30:39] And
[00:30:41] For
[00:30:42] Six
[00:30:42] Minutes
[00:30:43] And
[00:30:43] Then
[00:30:44] They
[00:30:44] Were
[00:30:44] Chaperoned
[00:30:45] With
[00:30:45] Horses
[00:30:45] And
[00:30:46] Police
[00:30:46] Officers
[00:30:46] Towards
[00:30:47] The
[00:30:47] Buses
[00:30:47] And
[00:30:48] As
[00:30:48] We
[00:30:49] Were
[00:30:49] Coming
[00:30:49] Out
[00:30:49] I
[00:30:50] Remember
[00:30:50] This
[00:30:50] Guy
[00:30:50] Just
[00:30:51] Taking
[00:30:52] His
[00:30:52] Hand
[00:30:52] Out
[00:30:52] His
[00:30:53] Pocket
[00:30:53] And
[00:30:53] Just
[00:30:53] Did
[00:30:53] That
[00:30:54] As
[00:30:54] Quickly
[00:30:54] As
[00:30:54] That
[00:30:55] And
[00:30:55] What
[00:30:55] He
[00:30:55] Had
[00:30:55] Done
[00:30:56] Was
[00:30:56] Throne
[00:30:56] Liquid
[00:30:56] On
[00:31:11] Is
[00:31:11] Me
[00:31:12] Having
[00:31:12] To
[00:31:12] Pretend
[00:31:13] That
[00:31:13] That's
[00:31:13] A
[00:31:13] Great
[00:31:14] Idea
[00:31:14] That's
[00:31:14] A
[00:31:14] Good
[00:31:15] Thing
[00:31:15] Yeah
[00:31:15] I
[00:31:15] Mean
[00:31:15] Obviously
[00:31:16] As
[00:31:16] A
[00:31:16] Police
[00:31:17] Officer
[00:31:17] You
[00:31:17] Know
[00:31:17] You're
[00:31:18] There
[00:31:18] To
[00:31:19] Protect
[00:31:20] Life
[00:31:20] Preserve
[00:31:21] Life
[00:31:21] Whatever
[00:31:21] It
[00:31:21] Is
[00:31:21] So
[00:31:22] I
[00:31:23] Mean
[00:31:23] Both
[00:31:23] Of
[00:31:23] You
[00:31:23] Must
[00:31:24] Obviously
[00:31:24] Have
[00:31:25] A
[00:31:25] View
[00:31:25] On
[00:31:26] Undercover
[00:31:27] Operatives
[00:31:27] I
[00:31:41] Casuals
[00:31:42] And
[00:31:42] I
[00:31:42] Think
[00:31:42] We
[00:31:43] Needed
[00:31:43] UCs
[00:31:43] Then
[00:31:44] And
[00:31:44] It
[00:31:45] Was
[00:31:45] A
[00:31:45] Very
[00:31:45] Dangerous
[00:31:46] Job
[00:31:46] And
[00:31:46] I
[00:31:46] Remember
[00:31:47] That
[00:31:47] Time
[00:31:47] In
[00:31:47] Football
[00:31:48] Where
[00:31:48] You
[00:31:48] Know
[00:31:48] The
[00:31:49] Visiting
[00:31:49] Support
[00:31:50] Sometimes
[00:31:50] Was
[00:31:51] Awful
[00:31:51] For
[00:31:51] In
[00:31:52] Aberdeen
[00:31:52] Always
[00:31:53] Sent
[00:31:53] A
[00:31:54] Horrific
[00:31:54] Visiting
[00:31:55] Support
[00:31:55] To
[00:31:55] Hearts
[00:31:56] And
[00:31:57] Rangers
[00:31:57] To
[00:31:57] Hibs
[00:31:58] And
[00:31:58] Hibs
[00:31:58] To
[00:31:58] Rangers
[00:31:59] It
[00:31:59] Was
[00:31:59] A
[00:31:59] Hard
[00:31:59] Thing
[00:32:00] And
[00:32:00] It's
[00:32:00] A
[00:32:01] Dangerous
[00:32:01] Business
[00:32:01] UC
[00:32:02] Operations
[00:32:03] And
[00:32:03] I
[00:32:03] Think
[00:32:03] Sometimes
[00:32:04] It's
[00:32:04] Embarked
[00:32:05] On
[00:32:05] When
[00:32:05] It's
[00:32:05] Not
[00:32:05] Necessary
[00:32:06] And
[00:32:07] Of
[00:32:07] Course
[00:32:07] It's
[00:32:07] Led
[00:32:07] To
[00:32:08] Huge
[00:32:08] Problems
[00:32:08] Down
[00:32:08] The
[00:32:09] Metropolitan
[00:32:09] Police
[00:32:09] Where
[00:32:10] They
[00:32:10] Infiltrated
[00:32:11] Environmental
[00:32:12] protesters
[00:32:13] And
[00:32:13] They
[00:32:13] Ended
[00:32:14] Up
[00:32:14] With
[00:32:14] Relationships
[00:32:15] And
[00:32:15] Pregnancies
[00:32:16] And
[00:32:16] All
[00:32:16] That
[00:32:17] Flew
[00:32:17] From
[00:32:17] That
[00:32:18] And
[00:32:19] When
[00:32:19] You
[00:32:19] Look
[00:32:19] At
[00:32:19] That
[00:32:19] And
[00:32:20] You
[00:32:20] Say
[00:32:20] Why
[00:32:20] Was
[00:32:21] That
[00:32:21] Necessary
[00:32:21] Because
[00:32:22] In
[00:32:34] Judge
[00:32:35] Balance
[00:32:35] I
[00:32:35] Have
[00:32:35] Never
[00:32:36] Been
[00:32:36] An
[00:32:36] Undercover
[00:32:37] Officer
[00:32:37] And
[00:32:38] I
[00:32:38] Don't
[00:32:38] Think
[00:32:38] I
[00:32:38] Don't
[00:32:39] Particularly
[00:32:39] Good
[00:32:39] At
[00:32:40] It
[00:32:40] I've
[00:32:40] Supervised
[00:32:41] UC
[00:32:41] Operations
[00:32:42] It's
[00:32:43] Dangerous
[00:32:44] It's
[00:32:44] Dangerous
[00:32:44] For
[00:32:45] The
[00:32:45] People
[00:32:45] For
[00:32:45] The
[00:32:45] UC
[00:32:46] Officers
[00:32:46] It's
[00:32:47] Also
[00:32:48] Harmful
[00:32:49] If
[00:32:50] They
[00:32:50] Do
[00:32:50] It
[00:32:50] For
[00:32:50] Too
[00:32:50] Long
[00:32:51] Because
[00:32:52] Their
[00:32:52] Whole
[00:32:53] Life
[00:32:53] Is
[00:32:54] Based
[00:32:54] On
[00:32:55] Deceit
[00:32:55] And
[00:32:56] Lies
[00:32:56] And
[00:32:57] Over
[00:32:58] A
[00:32:58] Long
[00:32:58] Period
[00:32:59] Of
[00:32:59] Time
[00:32:59] And
[00:33:00] The
[00:33:00] Trouble
[00:33:00] Is
[00:33:00] What
[00:33:01] Used
[00:33:04] At
[00:33:05] It
[00:33:05] Like
[00:33:05] Simon
[00:33:05] They
[00:33:06] Were
[00:33:06] Just
[00:33:06] Left
[00:33:07] To
[00:33:07] Get
[00:33:07] On
[00:33:07] With
[00:33:07] It
[00:33:07] For
[00:33:08] Years
[00:33:08] And
[00:33:08] Years
[00:33:09] And
[00:33:09] Years
[00:33:10] And
[00:33:10] Years
[00:33:10] And
[00:33:11] With
[00:33:11] Very
[00:33:11] Scant
[00:33:12] Attention
[00:33:12] To
[00:33:13] What
[00:33:13] The
[00:33:13] Harm
[00:33:13] It
[00:33:34] What
[00:33:35] To
[00:33:35] Talk
[00:33:35] About
[00:33:36] And
[00:33:37] That
[00:33:37] Talking
[00:33:37] Is
[00:33:38] The
[00:33:38] Key
[00:33:38] Word
[00:33:38] Because
[00:33:39] Until
[00:33:39] We
[00:33:40] Decided
[00:33:40] To
[00:33:40] Do
[00:33:40] That
[00:33:41] And
[00:33:41] At
[00:33:41] The
[00:33:42] Time
[00:33:42] I
[00:33:42] Remember
[00:33:42] Thinking
[00:33:43] You
[00:33:43] Know
[00:33:43] When
[00:33:44] You're
[00:33:44] Familiar
[00:33:44] With
[00:33:44] Something
[00:33:45] When
[00:33:45] It's
[00:33:45] So
[00:33:45] Familiar
[00:33:46] To
[00:33:46] You
[00:33:46] And
[00:33:46] You
[00:33:46] Did
[00:33:47] It
[00:33:47] For
[00:33:47] 12
[00:33:47] Years
[00:33:47] Or
[00:33:48] Whatever
[00:33:48] You
[00:33:48] Think
[00:33:49] I
[00:33:49] Could
[00:33:49] Talk
[00:33:49] About
[00:33:49] That
[00:33:49] All
[00:33:50] Day
[00:33:50] And
[00:33:50] We
[00:33:51] Started
[00:33:51] Talking
[00:33:51] About
[00:33:51] It
[00:33:52] Recording
[00:33:52] It
[00:33:52] And
[00:33:53] I
[00:33:53] Realized
[00:33:54] I
[00:33:54] Don't
[00:33:54] Like
[00:33:55] Where
[00:33:55] This
[00:33:55] Is
[00:33:55] Going
[00:33:55] And
[00:33:56] I
[00:33:56] Told
[00:33:56] Some
[00:33:56] Stories
[00:33:57] In
[00:33:57] The
[00:33:57] First
[00:33:57] Episode
[00:33:58] I
[00:33:58] Told
[00:33:58] Some
[00:33:58] Stories
[00:33:59] From
[00:33:59] My
[00:33:59] Early
[00:33:59] Career
[00:34:00] Which
[00:34:00] Could
[00:34:00] Be
[00:34:01] Classed
[00:34:01] As
[00:34:01] I
[00:34:01] Was
[00:34:02] Undercover
[00:34:02] But
[00:34:02] It
[00:34:02] Was
[00:34:03] Divisional
[00:34:03] Operational
[00:34:04] Stuff
[00:34:04] It
[00:34:05] Was
[00:34:05] A bit
[00:34:05] Of
[00:34:06] Housebreaking
[00:34:07] Recovering
[00:34:07] Stolen
[00:34:07] Property
[00:34:08] Whatever
[00:34:08] A bit
[00:34:09] Of
[00:34:09] Drugs
[00:34:09] But
[00:34:10] It
[00:34:10] Was
[00:34:10] Quite
[00:34:10] Light
[00:34:10] Hearted
[00:34:11] In
[00:34:11] A lot
[00:34:11] Of
[00:34:11] Ways
[00:34:12] Because
[00:34:12] There's
[00:34:12] A lot
[00:34:13] Of
[00:34:13] Humor
[00:34:13] Involved
[00:34:13] In
[00:34:13] These
[00:34:14] Things
[00:34:14] Too
[00:34:14] Sometimes
[00:34:15] But
[00:34:15] Then
[00:34:16] It
[00:34:16] Became
[00:34:16] Obvious
[00:34:16] That
[00:34:16] Tom
[00:34:17] Wanted
[00:34:17] To
[00:34:17] Take
[00:34:17] Me
[00:34:17] Somewhere
[00:34:18] A bit
[00:34:18] Darker
[00:34:19] Than
[00:34:19] That
[00:34:19] To
[00:34:19] When
[00:34:20] You
[00:34:20] Were
[00:34:20] In
[00:34:20] Deep
[00:34:20] Cover
[00:34:20] When
[00:34:21] You
[00:34:21] Were
[00:34:21] Infiltrating
[00:34:22] Workplaces
[00:34:22] Or
[00:34:23] Infiltrating
[00:34:24] Organizations
[00:34:24] That
[00:34:38] Stop
[00:34:39] If
[00:34:39] You
[00:34:39] Want
[00:34:39] There's
[00:34:39] No
[00:34:39] Problem
[00:34:40] Here
[00:34:40] But
[00:34:41] It
[00:34:41] Was
[00:34:41] Therapeutic
[00:34:42] So
[00:34:42] Anybody
[00:34:43] And
[00:34:43] We've
[00:34:43] All
[00:34:43] Got
[00:34:43] I'm
[00:34:44] Talking
[00:34:44] About
[00:34:44] Undercover
[00:34:44] Police
[00:34:45] Work
[00:34:45] Everybody
[00:34:45] Has
[00:34:46] Got
[00:34:46] Things
[00:34:46] Like
[00:34:46] That
[00:34:47] That
[00:34:47] Are
[00:34:47] Difficult
[00:34:47] Find
[00:34:48] Someone
[00:34:48] You
[00:34:49] Can
[00:34:49] Talk
[00:34:49] To
[00:34:49] And
[00:34:50] Do
[00:34:50] That
[00:34:50] Because
[00:34:51] It
[00:34:51] Is
[00:34:51] Therapeutic
[00:34:53] And
[00:34:54] I
[00:35:09] And
[00:35:10] I
[00:35:10] Stick
[00:35:10] Out
[00:35:10] Like
[00:35:10] So
[00:35:11] Thumb
[00:35:11] As
[00:35:11] A
[00:35:11] Policeman
[00:35:12] When
[00:35:12] I
[00:35:12] Go
[00:35:12] Anywhere
[00:35:12] Now
[00:35:13] People
[00:35:13] Say
[00:35:13] I
[00:35:13] X
[00:35:14] Cop
[00:35:14] Whatever
[00:35:14] Tom
[00:35:15] Tom
[00:35:15] Knows
[00:35:15] What
[00:35:15] I'm
[00:35:15] Talking
[00:35:16] About
[00:35:16] Here
[00:35:16] And
[00:35:17] In
[00:35:17] The
[00:35:17] CID
[00:35:17] People
[00:35:18] Say
[00:35:18] Why
[00:35:18] Are
[00:35:18] In
[00:35:19] A
[00:35:19] Suit
[00:35:19] Because
[00:35:19] You're
[00:35:20] You're
[00:35:20] Plain
[00:35:20] Clothes
[00:35:20] We
[00:35:21] Looked
[00:35:21] Like
[00:35:22] Detectives
[00:35:22] That
[00:35:22] Was
[00:35:23] The
[00:35:23] Whole
[00:35:23] Idea
[00:35:23] So
[00:35:24] To
[00:35:24] Get
[00:35:25] Rid
[00:35:25] Of
[00:35:25] That
[00:35:25] Is
[00:35:25] To
[00:35:27] Not
[00:35:27] Stick
[00:35:28] Outlet
[00:35:28] Or
[00:35:28] Thumb
[00:35:28] But
[00:35:29] You
[00:35:29] Can
[00:35:29] Tell
[00:35:29] When
[00:35:30] You
[00:35:30] Look
[00:35:30] In
[00:35:30] Somebody's
[00:35:30] Eyes
[00:35:31] If
[00:35:31] They're
[00:35:31] Telling
[00:35:32] You
[00:35:32] The
[00:35:32] Truth
[00:35:32] So
[00:35:33] It's
[00:35:33] A
[00:35:33] Very
[00:35:34] Dangerous
[00:35:34] Place
[00:35:35] To
[00:35:35] Be
[00:35:35] And
[00:35:36] I'm
[00:35:36] Saying
[00:35:36] I
[00:35:37] Don't
[00:35:38] Know
[00:35:38] If
[00:35:58] A
[00:35:58] Lot
[00:35:58] Of
[00:35:58] People
[00:35:58] Are
[00:35:58] Forced
[00:35:59] Into
[00:35:59] Crime
[00:35:59] Through
[00:35:59] Circumstances
[00:36:00] I've
[00:36:01] Got
[00:36:01] A Lot
[00:36:01] Of
[00:36:01] Empathy
[00:36:02] For
[00:36:02] Drug
[00:36:02] Users
[00:36:03] Who
[00:36:03] Are
[00:36:03] Victims
[00:36:04] Of
[00:36:28] And
[00:36:28] Fortunately
[00:36:28] I
[00:36:29] Did
[00:36:29] Fit
[00:36:29] In
[00:36:29] I've
[00:36:30] Been
[00:36:30] Close
[00:36:30] To
[00:36:30] The
[00:36:31] Wire
[00:36:31] A
[00:36:31] Few
[00:36:31] Times
[00:36:31] And
[00:36:32] We
[00:36:32] All
[00:36:33] Have
[00:36:33] Everybody
[00:36:33] That
[00:36:33] Worked
[00:36:34] There
[00:36:34] But
[00:36:34] Here's
[00:36:34] a
[00:36:35] Thought
[00:36:57] I
[00:36:58] Five
[00:36:58] Days
[00:36:58] A
[00:36:58] Year
[00:36:58] 24
[00:36:59] Hours
[00:37:00] A
[00:37:00] Day
[00:37:00] You
[00:37:01] Have
[00:37:01] To
[00:37:01] Be
[00:37:01] On
[00:37:01] Your
[00:37:01] Toes
[00:37:02] And
[00:37:03] You
[00:37:03] Don't
[00:37:03] Even
[00:37:03] Know
[00:37:04] What
[00:37:04] You're
[00:37:04] Looking
[00:37:04] For
[00:37:05] Could
[00:37:06] Be
[00:37:06] Undercovers
[00:37:06] In
[00:37:07] Here
[00:37:07] Today
[00:37:07] For
[00:37:07] All
[00:37:08] I
[00:37:08] Know
[00:37:08] Surveillance
[00:37:09] Is
[00:37:09] About
[00:37:09] Blending
[00:37:10] In
[00:37:10] So
[00:37:11] You
[00:37:11] Have
[00:37:11] No
[00:37:11] Idea
[00:37:11] What
[00:37:12] Vehicle
[00:37:12] You're
[00:37:12] Looking
[00:37:12] For
[00:37:13] We
[00:37:13] Had
[00:37:13] Every
[00:37:13] Type
[00:37:14] Of
[00:37:14] Vehicle
[00:37:14] You
[00:37:15] Could
[00:37:15] Ever
[00:37:15] Imagine
[00:37:15] Available
[00:37:16] To
[00:37:28] Of
[00:37:29] The
[00:37:29] Suspicion
[00:37:30] That
[00:37:30] We're
[00:37:30] There
[00:37:31] Only
[00:37:31] There
[00:37:32] For
[00:37:32] A
[00:37:32] Few
[00:37:32] Hours
[00:37:32] A
[00:37:33] Year
[00:37:33] Really
[00:37:34] How
[00:37:35] Good
[00:37:35] Were
[00:37:35] You
[00:37:35] At
[00:37:35] Sticking
[00:37:35] To
[00:37:36] The
[00:37:36] Script
[00:37:36] When
[00:37:36] You
[00:37:36] Were
[00:37:36] Undercover
[00:37:37] Dreadful
[00:37:38] There
[00:37:39] Is
[00:37:39] No
[00:37:39] Script
[00:37:40] The
[00:37:41] Funny
[00:37:41] Thing
[00:37:41] Is
[00:37:43] Even
[00:37:43] The
[00:37:43] Master
[00:37:44] Criminals
[00:37:44] Live
[00:37:45] Ordinary
[00:37:45] Lives
[00:37:46] And
[00:37:46] I
[00:37:46] Remember
[00:37:47] We
[00:37:48] Had
[00:37:48] A
[00:37:48] Surveillance
[00:37:48] On
[00:37:49] Some
[00:37:49] Guys
[00:37:50] Who
[00:37:50] Are
[00:37:50] Terrorist
[00:37:50] Suspects
[00:37:51] Actually
[00:37:51] In
[00:37:51] Edinburgh
[00:37:51] And
[00:37:52] A
[00:37:53] Couple
[00:37:53] Of
[00:37:53] Them
[00:37:53] Went
[00:37:53] To
[00:37:54] One
[00:37:54] Of
[00:37:54] The
[00:37:54] Big
[00:37:54] Supermarkets
[00:37:55] And
[00:37:55] We
[00:37:55] Thought
[00:37:55] What's
[00:37:56] Going
[00:37:56] To
[00:37:56] Happen
[00:37:56] Here
[00:37:56] Are
[00:37:57] They
[00:38:11] A
[00:38:11] Day
[00:38:12] Hour
[00:38:13] Surveilling
[00:38:14] People
[00:38:14] And
[00:38:15] Being
[00:38:15] Outside
[00:38:15] Their
[00:38:16] Houses
[00:38:16] Waiting
[00:38:17] For
[00:38:17] A
[00:38:17] Snatch
[00:38:17] Or
[00:38:18] Outside
[00:38:19] Their
[00:38:19] Places
[00:38:19] They
[00:38:19] Work
[00:38:20] And
[00:38:20] It's
[00:38:20] Nothing
[00:38:21] Like
[00:38:21] It
[00:38:22] Is
[00:38:22] On
[00:38:22] Telly
[00:38:23] There's
[00:38:24] No
[00:38:24] Magic
[00:38:24] Bullet
[00:38:26] You
[00:38:41] Bath
[00:38:41] Clyde
[00:38:42] Police
[00:38:42] Over
[00:38:42] Here
[00:38:42] You
[00:38:43] Had
[00:38:43] Very
[00:38:44] Little
[00:38:44] Back
[00:38:44] Up
[00:38:44] Out
[00:38:45] There
[00:38:45] And
[00:38:45] It's
[00:38:45] A
[00:38:45] Different
[00:38:45] Age
[00:38:46] We're
[00:38:46] Talking
[00:38:46] About
[00:38:46] As
[00:38:47] Well
[00:38:47] A
[00:38:47] Different
[00:38:48] Climate
[00:38:48] You've
[00:38:49] Got
[00:38:49] Our
[00:38:49] Admiration
[00:38:50] For
[00:38:50] The
[00:38:50] Job
[00:38:50] That
[00:38:50] You
[00:38:51] Were
[00:38:51] Doing
[00:38:51] Then
[00:38:51] Because
[00:38:52] It
[00:38:52] Was
[00:38:52] Dangerous
[00:38:53] Too
[00:38:54] Yeah
[00:38:54] I mean
[00:38:54] I've
[00:38:55] Had
[00:38:55] A
[00:38:56] Few
[00:38:56] Sticky
[00:38:56] Situations
[00:38:57] In
[00:38:57] Fact
[00:38:57] Not
[00:38:58] That
[00:38:58] Long
[00:38:58] Ago
[00:38:59] I
[00:38:59] Actually
[00:38:59] Had
[00:39:00] To
[00:39:00] Remember
[00:39:00] An
[00:39:00] Incident
[00:39:01] A
[00:39:01] Very
[00:39:02] Famous
[00:39:02] Music
[00:39:03] Manager
[00:39:03] House
[00:39:04] In
[00:39:04] In
[00:39:05] Ingleston
[00:39:05] Tom
[00:39:06] Will
[00:39:06] Know
[00:39:06] Who
[00:39:06] I'm
[00:39:06] Talking
[00:39:06] About
[00:39:08] Years
[00:39:08] Ago
[00:39:09] When
[00:39:09] I
[00:39:09] Was
[00:39:09] A
[00:39:10] Crime
[00:39:10] Reporter
[00:39:10] At
[00:39:10] The
[00:39:10] Evening
[00:39:11] News
[00:39:11] In
[00:39:11] Edinburgh
[00:39:11] I
[00:39:12] Was
[00:39:12] Sent
[00:39:12] To
[00:39:13] Tam
[00:39:14] Payton
[00:39:14] House
[00:39:14] Who
[00:39:15] At
[00:39:15] That
[00:39:15] Time
[00:39:15] Was
[00:39:16] The
[00:39:16] Manager
[00:39:16] Of
[00:39:16] The
[00:39:16] Bay
[00:39:17] City
[00:39:17] Rollers
[00:39:17] Payton
[00:39:18] Had
[00:39:18] Just
[00:39:18] Been
[00:39:19] Under
[00:39:19] Investigation
[00:39:20] For
[00:39:20] Allegations
[00:39:21] Of
[00:39:22] Abuse
[00:39:22] And
[00:39:33] Around
[00:39:34] About
[00:39:34] His
[00:39:35] Dallas
[00:39:35] Style
[00:39:36] Ranch
[00:39:36] It
[00:39:37] Was
[00:39:37] Like
[00:39:37] You
[00:39:37] Know
[00:39:37] Something
[00:39:38] Like
[00:39:38] Out
[00:39:38] Of
[00:39:38] Dallas
[00:39:39] It
[00:39:39] Was
[00:39:39] You
[00:39:39] Know
[00:39:39] A
[00:39:39] Big
[00:39:40] Huge
[00:39:41] Palatial
[00:39:41] I
[00:39:42] Don't
[00:39:42] Know
[00:39:42] What
[00:39:42] It
[00:39:42] Was
[00:39:42] Mansion
[00:39:44] And
[00:39:44] We
[00:39:44] Were
[00:39:44] Warned
[00:39:45] That
[00:39:45] There
[00:39:45] Were
[00:39:45] Groups
[00:39:46] Of
[00:39:46] Boys
[00:39:47] That
[00:39:47] He
[00:39:47] Liked
[00:39:47] To
[00:39:48] Have
[00:39:48] Hanging
[00:39:48] Around
[00:39:49] With
[00:39:49] Them
[00:39:50] So
[00:39:50] Myself
[00:39:51] And
[00:39:51] The
[00:39:51] Photographer
[00:39:52] Went
[00:39:52] Out
[00:39:53] There
[00:39:54] And
[00:39:54] We
[00:39:54] Got
[00:39:54] There
[00:39:55] And
[00:39:55] We
[00:39:55] Drove
[00:39:55] Up
[00:39:56] And
[00:39:56] Sure
[00:39:57] Enough
[00:39:57] Loads
[00:39:58] Of
[00:39:58] Teenage
[00:39:59] Boys
[00:39:59] Me
[00:39:59] Roughly
[00:40:00] About
[00:40:00] 16
[00:40:00] 17
[00:40:01] You
[00:40:01] Know
[00:40:02] Not
[00:40:02] Much
[00:40:02] Older
[00:40:02] Possibly
[00:40:04] Younger
[00:40:04] And
[00:40:04] One
[00:40:05] Of
[00:40:24] He
[00:40:24] Ambles
[00:40:25] Out
[00:40:25] And
[00:40:25] He
[00:40:25] Said
[00:40:25] Oh
[00:40:26] It's
[00:40:26] Just
[00:40:26] A
[00:40:26] Joke
[00:40:27] It's
[00:40:27] Just
[00:40:27] A
[00:40:27] Joke
[00:40:27] You
[00:40:28] Know
[00:40:28] I'm
[00:40:28] Kidding
[00:40:28] On
[00:40:28] And
[00:40:29] I
[00:40:29] Looked
[00:40:29] Round
[00:40:30] To
[00:40:30] See
[00:40:30] Where
[00:40:30] The
[00:40:30] Photographer
[00:40:31] Was
[00:40:31] And
[00:40:31] He's
[00:40:31] Hiding
[00:40:32] In
[00:40:32] The
[00:40:32] Boot
[00:40:32] Of
[00:40:32] The
[00:40:32] Car
[00:40:34] So
[00:40:38] Backup
[00:40:38] No
[00:40:39] It
[00:40:39] Was
[00:40:41] Jane
[00:40:42] I
[00:40:42] Must
[00:40:42] Tell
[00:40:43] You
[00:40:43] A
[00:40:43] Story
[00:40:43] About
[00:40:44] Tim
[00:40:44] Payton
[00:40:44] He
[00:40:45] He
[00:40:46] He's
[00:40:46] Dead
[00:40:46] Now
[00:40:47] So
[00:40:47] I
[00:40:47] Can
[00:40:47] Tell
[00:40:47] The
[00:40:47] Story
[00:40:48] He
[00:40:49] He
[00:40:49] Was
[00:40:51] He
[00:40:51] Was
[00:40:52] A
[00:40:52] Major
[00:40:52] Cannabis
[00:40:53] Dealer
[00:40:53] For
[00:40:53] The
[00:40:53] East
[00:40:53] Of
[00:40:54] Scotland
[00:40:54] He
[00:40:54] Always
[00:40:55] Had
[00:40:55] Large
[00:40:55] Amounts
[00:40:55] Of
[00:40:56] The
[00:40:56] Drug
[00:40:56] And
[00:40:56] Cash
[00:40:57] And
[00:40:57] Of
[00:40:57] Course
[00:40:58] He
[00:40:58] Was
[00:40:58] Always
[00:40:58] Get
[00:40:58] Raided
[00:40:58] By
[00:40:59] The
[00:40:59] Police
[00:40:59] So
[00:40:59] What
[00:40:59] He
[00:40:59] Did
[00:41:00] Was
[00:41:00] He
[00:41:12] Had
[00:41:16] Extensive
[00:41:16] And
[00:41:17] This
[00:41:17] Dog
[00:41:18] Used
[00:41:20] To
[00:41:20] Find
[00:41:20] Stashes
[00:41:21] Of
[00:41:22] Cash
[00:41:22] And
[00:41:23] Drugs
[00:41:23] And
[00:41:24] Payton
[00:41:26] We
[00:41:26] Knew
[00:41:27] People
[00:41:27] That
[00:41:27] Knew
[00:41:27] Payton
[00:41:28] Payton
[00:41:29] Was
[00:41:29] Raging
[00:41:31] There
[00:41:34] Was
[00:41:34] An
[00:41:34] Old
[00:41:35] Dog
[00:41:35] And
[00:41:35] Dig
[00:41:37] Up
[00:41:37] Comes
[00:41:38] This
[00:41:38] Plastic
[00:41:38] Bag
[00:41:39] But
[00:41:40] The
[00:41:40] Situation
[00:41:41] You
[00:41:41] Are
[00:41:41] Talking
[00:41:41] About
[00:41:41] Jane
[00:41:41] What
[00:41:42] Payton
[00:41:43] Used
[00:41:43] To
[00:41:43] Do
[00:41:43] Because
[00:41:43] He
[00:41:44] Had
[00:41:44] Been
[00:41:44] Successful
[00:41:44] With
[00:41:44] The
[00:41:45] Bay
[00:41:45] City
[00:41:45] Rollers
[00:41:45] And
[00:41:46] Ripped
[00:41:46] Them
[00:41:47] Off
[00:41:47] I
[00:41:47] Mean
[00:41:47] Stole
[00:41:48] Their
[00:41:48] Money
[00:41:48] A
[00:41:49] Lot
[00:41:49] Of
[00:41:49] Young
[00:41:49] Boy
[00:41:50] Bands
[00:41:50] Were
[00:41:51] Tempted
[00:41:52] To
[00:41:52] Seek
[00:41:52] His
[00:41:53] Advice
[00:41:53] And
[00:41:53] Guides
[00:41:53] We
[00:41:54] Had
[00:41:54] A
[00:41:54] Lot
[00:41:54] Of
[00:41:54] Trouble
[00:41:55] With
[00:41:55] Them
[00:41:55] And
[00:41:55] I
[00:41:55] Was
[00:41:55] In
[00:41:55] Several
[00:41:56] Cases
[00:41:57] Against
[00:41:57] Payton
[00:41:58] But
[00:41:59] It
[00:41:59] Was
[00:41:59] A
[00:42:18] Thing
[00:42:20] Some
[00:42:24] So
[00:42:25] I
[00:42:26] Done
[00:42:30] People
[00:42:31] They
[00:42:33] Boy
[00:42:40] A
[00:42:41] To
[00:42:43] that give you any sense of finality and closure? No, I wouldn't say that. And I've been trying to
[00:42:49] write the follow up to it. I need another lockdown though. What it did do was that it had, I don't
[00:42:55] know if Tom's felt this, but it's like ripples all over the world because there's so many subjects
[00:43:00] in there. My daughter was a big one of them in cystic fibrosis. So from that angle, I've had
[00:43:05] people from all over. The drugs community now with the work that I do with Leap, I get people
[00:43:10] emailing me randomly or messaging me on Facebook saying I've been clean for four years or whatever.
[00:43:15] I've donated £100 to cystic fibrosis. I mean, all over the world, Australia, America, the
[00:43:21] ramifications when you put something like that out there, you never know where it's going to go and
[00:43:26] how it's going to affect people's lives. How did Leap come about? Can you tell us why you got
[00:43:31] involved? When the book was first released, when Tom and I met, when the 10% first came out, and
[00:43:36] there's nothing in my book about Leap or about drugs issues. Because until then, I had been
[00:43:42] involved pretty much all my career in locking up drug dealers and drug users and anybody associated
[00:43:48] with the drugs market. That was my job. And that's what we did. And we were really good at it. And the
[00:43:53] corruption that comes from that and the war on drugs, if you like, and the organised crime that stems
[00:43:59] from that because the drugs market underpins much of that nefarious activity globally. So the book came
[00:44:06] out, I was asked to go and do an interview with a guy, Sean Atwood, and it's still on YouTube. I
[00:44:12] think it's had 60,000 views or something like that. And it was meant to be an hour. We had to meet him in
[00:44:16] Liverpool, and it ended up four hours. And we spoke about Ferris and all sorts of things that were in
[00:44:22] the book. And one of the things was he asked me about drugs, and I told him the truth that I didn't
[00:44:27] think we'd done any good whatsoever. At that time, I didn't realise that we were doing harm, but I
[00:44:31] thought we'd had no effect whatsoever, because the marketplace fills itself up so quickly from any
[00:44:36] vacuum we can create. And he said on the podcast, Jane, you should get in touch with my friend Neil
[00:44:43] Woods, at least. So after the interview, I did that and discovered that there were thousands of
[00:44:49] police officers, not just police officers, the court system, solicitors. We've got hundreds of partners
[00:44:55] who are campaigning the same as we are for change to our outdated drug laws. And that's how the leap
[00:45:02] thing came about. But the book has got nothing about that in it whatsoever, because it was me that
[00:45:06] had the paradigm shift and thought, I'm not going mad here. Actually, there's a lot of cops, and now
[00:45:11] serving cops too, who know what we're talking about. The one thing we know is that what we're doing right
[00:45:17] now isn't working. That's probably the one thing that we could all agree on, and that we need to sit down
[00:45:22] and talk about how we move forward. Next time on Crime Time Inc. The World's End is a pub in Edinburgh,
[00:45:28] and on the 15th of October 1977, a long time ago now, two young girls, 17-year-old girls from
[00:45:34] Edinburgh went in there on a night out, and they never came home. And they were found murdered,
[00:45:39] brutally murdered, 20 miles down the coastline in East Lothian the day after. And Tom says in one of the
[00:45:48] podcasts, these were our girls. Their pictures were on these walls in London and Borders for 37 years,
[00:45:55] and there's nobody worked on the case. A lot of people retired over that period of time, Tom,
[00:46:00] and a lot of guys joined the police over that period of time, and everybody adopted that philosophy,
[00:46:05] and we did that with every murder case. Every murder case I've ever worked on, we took personally.
[00:46:13] Then, you know, you might as well write Midsummer Murders, you know? It's nonsense.
[00:46:19] I like Midsummer Murders.
[00:46:25] Oh, you're going to suffer for that one.
[00:46:33] Why, for example, haven't they identified further victims of, say, Peter Tobin?
[00:46:43] I get this from police officers quite often. They'll say,
[00:46:46] so what are you saying, Simon, that our kids should just be able to go out on the streets and buy drugs,
[00:46:51] willy-nilly? And I say, well, actually, that's what's happening right now,
[00:46:55] and you don't know it.
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