Crime Time Inc: From Witch Trials to Modern Mobsters

[00:00:00] Welcome to Crime Time Inc, a daily podcast where we bring a true crime story every single day of the week with an overview and review with Tom Wood and myself every Sunday. And here is today's episode. Hi Tom, how are you this evening?

[00:00:29] It is this evening. How are you in the sunny Australia? How are you getting on? That was just a guess because it's five past eight in the morning here as you know. Yeah, good. Beautiful. Beautiful. Good. You're up in the Barrier Reef country. That's absolutely lovely. Yeah, absolutely beautiful. Now then, Simon. Now then, before we start on the deep dive, have I got some questions for you from the quiz book? At this time in the morning.

[00:00:56] Ah, but this is right up your street. This is right up your street. Tom, I'll buy that quiz book off you. How much do you want? You couldn't buy this. You don't have enough money to buy this quiz book. This quiz book is wonderful. The best thing I've ever been given. It's fabulous. Right, listen up, listen up. Okay.

[00:01:16] In 1998, long before he found fame as a TV chef, Gino DeCampo was sentenced to two years in prison after breaking into the house of a famous pop singer to steal guitars and a platinum disc.

[00:01:32] It was the home of, and here's the choices. One, Paul Weller. Two, Paul Young. Three, Paul McCartney. We are Teresa and Nemo. And now we are to Shopify. The platform, the we used before Shopify used, has used updates, which have often been used to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have a job.

[00:02:00] Endlich makes our Nemo Boards Shop also on the mobile device a good figure. And the illustrations on the boards come now very, very clear, what is important to us and what our brand is also making us out. Start your test now today for 1€ per month on shopify.de slash radio. Hello. It's the first time McCartney's came up for a while. You know, I met him, Tom.

[00:02:26] Listen, I know you met him and you were a groupie and I know you hung about the doors and you were his private detective. And that's why I'm sure you will know the answer to this question. So I'm just going to give you an additional clue. Okay. Good. But can I tell you, Simon, you can't afford to get this wrong. That's all I'm saying. You can't afford to get this wrong. Clues are my bread and butter, remember. Clues are the bread and butter of a detective, remember.

[00:02:56] Right. The guitars that were stolen were a Hoffner and a Gibson Les Paul. Now, so now you think about it because your whole credibility rests on the answer to this question. Was it Paul Weller? Was it Paul Young? Or was it Paul McCartney?

[00:03:21] Tom, I've given evidence in the High Court, the Sheriff Court, the District Court, many a tribunal, you name it. And I know that my credibility is not an issue here because it went long ago. If I had any credibility, I wouldn't be doing a podcast with you on Crime Time Inc. If I had any credibility left, for goodness sake. And at eight o'clock in the morning, no, you wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah. That's true. On holiday.

[00:03:51] I think the Hoffners confused me because I thought the last person it would be would be McCartney. Because of my friendship with him, I thought I would know about this. I thought he'd come up in conversation at some point. And it's about late at night to phone him on a Sunday night and ask him. Against all my instincts, I'm going to go for McCartney just because he's my father. Now remember, this was 1998. Oh no. 1998.

[00:04:19] And I've actually been in the room with Paul with all his guitars. Right. Okay. In the room that he keeps at a certain temperature to keep them all in tune. But I don't, and I know that he plays Hoffner. And I would imagine he's got every guitar under the sun. I'm going to go for McCartney. I'm sorry to tell you, Simon, it was Paul Young. However, a small admission. I made up the bit about the Hoffner and the last Paul. So I thought, I just, I just tempted you out, you see.

[00:04:47] I just gave you a little bit. And I just tempted you out into the trap. Yeah. You fell right in it. You fell right in it. Yeah. Because I'm used to dealing with facts, of course. Which brings us nicely onto our first case, Tom. The, the, and it's, it's not really a case. It's a period of, of history that none of us should be very proud of. So I don't know where they dug this one up.

[00:05:15] It was kind of left field from the deep dive team, wasn't it? To deal with the persecution of the witches. Yeah. Funnily enough, I've done some work on this a while ago when I was doing some early research around Birkenhaer, which, you know, have an interest in the body snatchers from the 1820s in Edinburgh. Which we covered in Kind Time Inc. Quite extensively. Yes. Which we've covered and we've done an episode on Birkenhaer.

[00:05:43] And we'll find out from our back team what episode it was. Anyway, so, witchcraft, yeah, very interesting because there's a lot of misinformation about this. And actually the deep dive team did quite a good job, but there was one or two things missing from the research. Interestingly, and this will interest you, because I know that you have close connections, personal connections with the brewing industry.

[00:06:11] Now, the whole issue of witchcraft is actually linked with brewing. Because this is what happened. Back in the day, 17th century, brewing and making of beers and spirits was very much a kitchen sink industry. Working class women eked out a living by making beers in their kitchen sinks, literally.

[00:06:33] But when it got profitable, the big business and the men and the money men moved in and took over the professional making of beer and put these women out of work. Okay. So they then switched, many of them, to start to make natural remedies, natural healing potions. Okay.

[00:06:56] Now, when things go wrong and there's a bad harvest or a ship sinks, a fishing boat sinks or there's a storm or something or the cow falls down dead and you're looking for a scapegoat, the person that makes natural remedies, spells, is going to be the top suspect. And that's one of the reasons why many of these women fell under suspicion. But again, the deep dive team, I think, didn't pay enough attention to the role of the church.

[00:07:26] Because in the very early days, it was church courts that prosecuted these women. Most of them were women. Two thirds were women, but a third were men. That's another thing that gets misrepresented. It does, yeah. Yeah. Because it's made out to be a misogynist thing, but it wasn't entirely. It was church courts. The minister was the judge and the church session were the jury. And it was only after King James VI, who was the, he was a, he was psychotic about witches.

[00:07:55] When he moved down to London to be King James I of England, the Lord Advocate became de facto the ruler of Scotland or the sort of chief person in Scotland at that time. And he said, well, hang on a minute, never mind about all the church courts. Let's just put these witchcraft cases to the proper court and let's see the evidence. And of course, then said evidence. Ah, oh, evidence.

[00:08:21] Well, well, the cow died and, and Jeannie there, she makes potions and spells. So therefore the two must be, hang on a minute, where's the evidence? And the whole thing fell about. So the church had a terrible role to play. King James VI was completely paranoid about witches. He thought that any misfortune that befell him because he was king must be the work of the devil and the agents of the devil were witches.

[00:08:50] And so that's how it all came about. But as you say, it was a dreadful period in the, in the, in the history of Scotland. Absolutely dreadful. And of course it was weaponized, Tom, because they could do it through the churches. People took advantage of that to gain land, to gain property, to, for inheritance purposes, etc, which is exactly human nature.

[00:09:11] The thing I was fascinated about, and I love that you've put that correct, because the deep dive team didn't pick up that nuance, the difference between James I and James VI. They also didn't pick up the difference in law between Scotland and England at that time. And now for that matter. So you've picked up brilliantly on the nuances of that.

[00:09:31] And I think he explained it more fully than the deep dive team did, who gave us the facts and got across the horror of the whole thing, but just missed that difference in nuance between proper prosecution. The thing I really liked was the evidence that he used was spectral evidence. And it's something that I wish that we'd had in Strathclyde back in the day. Would have come in very useful, that spectral evidence. Did you have anything like that in Edinburgh?

[00:09:58] Simon, you did have spectral evidence in Strathclyde back in the day. You did. You very much did. I've been involved in some, I've been in some cases with Strathclyde, serious crimes going, but it was all spectral evidence. Let me tell you. Spectral evidence is dreams and visions, you know. I had a dream and I thought so and so, rather than actually direct evidence. I mean, well, I mean, they had to concoct a case of something.

[00:10:27] The truth of the matter is that it was a medieval suspicious time, superstitious time where if a cow died or there was a bad harvest, they had to find a reason for it. But religion and the church, particularly in Scotland, the Church of Scotland actually should hang their head in shape. The thing is, to be fair to the deep divers, I mean, they're American and they do a great job for us.

[00:10:55] But their witch hunts in Salem and these places, and they had them as well, of course, were slightly different. They were more based on jealousy and on, as you say, appropriation of property and just people with grudges against other people.

[00:11:09] In our model, in Scotland, it was very much about religion and the power of the church and the belief of King James that, you know, it all started with him when his bride-to-be was shipwrecked coming from Norway. And he thought this was the work of the devil, because how could the princess, the bride-to-be of the king come to grief if it was not the work of the devil? Because the devil was the only person who would take on someone as high and mighty as him.

[00:11:39] So it was all of this stuff. But when the Lord Advocate actually wanted to see the evidence, guess what? There was none. There was none. Just the confessions, Tom. There were legitimate confessions. I think some of the interviewing techniques left a bit to be desired, didn't they? It wasn't exactly tape-recorded interviews that they had back in the day.

[00:12:03] Even you, Simon, even you would have balked at the measures they went to obtain confessions. Even you would have shied away from it. I'm not so sure. Well, I think you would have. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. The benefit of the doubt. It was a very interesting period. And like a lot of history, it's been recently written up in a certain way. And it's been written up from a feminist standpoint.

[00:12:30] And you see a lot of which it's all about the subjugation of women. And of course, mainly it was, but not entirely. And as I say, a third of witches who were prosecuted were men. And just for your information, there is a difference between a witch and a warlock. All warlocks are not necessarily men. That's a different thing entirely. But perhaps closer to Halloween, we'll go into this in more detail.

[00:12:58] You seem to know an awful lot about it, Tom. But we'll find out why. I'll get the deep dive team to find out why you know so much about this. I've just had an urgent phone call from the producer to remind us that we actually covered the Westport murders, which is the crimes of Birkenhead in season two, episode seven and eight. And he's also telling me that the Salem witch trials is going to come up in the future. The deep dive team are working on it right now.

[00:13:26] So we'll be revisiting witches in the not too distant future. Great stuff, Tom. Tom, just to round up on the witches thing, the one thing that stuck out for me, I use this sometimes just as a passing reference when I'm talking about bad law. And I know that this wasn't really, doesn't really fit that. But what it does do is show how public opinion and how how everybody can be dragged along the wrong road.

[00:13:54] And the other examples I use are homosexuality, which was illegal. The gambling, which is illegal. Laws change and views change over the years. And of course, I use that when I'm talking about drugs. And it's time that we had to look at the drug laws in the same light and realize that the bad laws now in our current society, there's different ways we could be doing things. It's just a reassign for these laws that change. The law has to evolve. That's the point of it. Well, that's right.

[00:14:23] And, you know, we still have many laws on our statute books dating from the 1800s. And I have often thought that what we should do when we enact new legislation is we should adopt a one in, one out. And what we also have, of course, is duplication. The new statutes are, I mean, dangerous dogs and all that. It's all covered already. It's just that we don't enforce it. It's all covered already. But yes, that's right.

[00:14:53] And of course, bad cases make bad law as well. Yeah, you've got to be careful about that. But very interesting episode. Well, let's take a break for a quick advert and we'll be back shortly. The next case, Tom, a very interesting one, this murder. Much more recent, 1998, and this was called The Body in the Bin. It's funny how the newspapers and media give murders.

[00:15:16] That's how you identify them as time goes on is how the headline, what the title was in the newspaper. That's what it becomes. But this was the, how do you say the name of that river? Hawkesbury. Hawkesbury River, 1998. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And this one, every episode now, it seems to come up, Tom, about how easy it is to kill someone and how hard it is to get rid of them. I know, it's funny. And you know what?

[00:15:42] Time and time again, putting bodies in water is such an unreliable way of disposing of a body. So often we see, I mean, we covered the limbs in the loch case just recently back here in Scotland. And here we see it again. People put bodies in water. I think we're going to have to, maybe, you think it would be unprincipled of us to have a session or two on how to dispose of bodies?

[00:16:10] I think we'd get in trouble from our ex-colleagues if we did that. I think we might break our viewing figures. I think that would be, we'd be off here, we'd be taken off here. Yeah. The other thing that struck me about this was about because the deceased was identified by tattoos. And it put me in mind of a remarkable piece of work there, a friend of mine, Hex Lothian, the border officer, who worked in Europol.

[00:16:37] And he undertook a survey of Russian prison tattoos. It's fascinating because when people go into a Russian prison, they get tattooed and their tattoos are given to them according to their rank and their status. And according to how many people they've killed and all the rest of it. So it's almost like a personal history, which is on your arm and on your chest.

[00:17:02] And if you know how to decipher it, you can actually, you actually tell what sort of person you're dealing with just through their tattoos. Now, that's a slight aside, but it's perhaps a separate session for us on deciphering tattoos because it's now become, as a result of the work this fella did, it's now become an actually a separate study in itself. It's interesting. Yeah. And it's something that we did.

[00:17:30] Every prisoner was processed, Tom, and we took fingerprints and a photograph and took identifying features, birthmarks or tattoos, things like that, which were invaluable moving forward. Because unfortunately, people lie about their identity when they get arrested by the police. Very often they give false details. But always identification is crucial, whether it's a sudden death, whether it's a murder, whether it's simply somebody appearing for a breach of the peace in court.

[00:17:58] Identification is absolutely fundamental to the case, even to appointing to the accused and all the rest of it in the witness box. That identification is so important right through every aspect of our work as police officers. So tattoos were great, weren't they? And people think that the great, the other thing was the gangs in America, of course, in LA in particular, the gang culture. Tattoos were a big part of that as well.

[00:18:25] So I think we will cover that again, that whole aspect of identification moving forward. But the murder we're talking about here was again the disposal. Yeah, Peter, I still, yeah. It was, it was another one of these horrible murders. And he'd, and in disposal of the body, again, as you say, it's the old lesson, easy to kill someone, but really difficult. He'd gone to great lengths, he'd sealed the barrel, he'd put silicone sealing around it, he'd bored holes in the barrel, so that water would get in.

[00:18:56] But, but still, but still, the body pops up. And, you know, in water, you find this all the time. It's very interesting. Yeah. Tom, the next case that we had here was Mary Gibbs, which was the, it's an incredible case, this guy. Firstly, two of them were involved in the original kidnapping, which is horrific, young kids and a school teacher. And then a few years later, one of them goes and does it all over again.

[00:19:25] You know what this reminded me of, Simon? Do you remember, we've spoken about it with George Barnsley, about the fellow Robert Moen, who escaped from Carstairs and murdered the police officer, and had murdered one of the prison guards. That was the very first episode of Ground Time Inc., Tom, in season one. Oh, yes, of course it was. That's right. That's right.

[00:19:48] Well, Robert Moen, his first offence was actually trying to take hostage of a class of children. And I think he murdered the school teacher on that occasion. And it was right out the blue. I mean, there was no reason for him to do it. But this was a kidnapping and ransom. But, I mean, it was a half-baked effort, I've got to say something. Yeah.

[00:20:12] I mean, you know, he, he, they ended up with about 17 people in a truck, apparently, and this and that. I mean, what a half-baked effort. Yeah. And, and clearly this, this, this fella, he didn't let him, because you see, he comes back. With, with an even, and this time he's looking for 17 million dollars or something. Seven million. And drugs. He wants some cocaine and heroin and he wants prisoners released. Right. That's right. Some wish list. But you know what I liked about it?

[00:20:41] The first case, I don't know if you picked this up, Simon. You might not have picked this up. But the two, the two police officers that were out there in front to arrest him were both assistant commissioners, both senior police officers. In Victoria, I think it was. Now, that just shows you that the senior officers have still got it. They can still go out and do it. It must have happened in a fancy restaurant then. That's all I can say. You're being very, very unkind.

[00:21:13] I don't think so. The school teacher was a piece of work in the first case, wasn't she? She was fantastic. She ended up with the George Medal and all the rest of it. Kicking the door down and getting the kids out and getting away. That's right. Absolutely. Oh no, no. Full marks. Absolutely full marks to her. And that was Mary Gibbs and she got the medal and all the rest of it afterwards. She got the George Medal as she deserved. Yes. Well done. And then the second case, it was a male teacher.

[00:21:41] He'd only been nine days in the job, Tom. I thought that was a bit rough for him. An introduction to your new job. Well, isn't that the way of it though? Yeah. How often have you seen that? How often have you seen a very young cop, first week or so in the job and walks into some horrendous circumstance, you know, and you think, oh no. Nine days. I can see him going home that night and his parents saying, how was work today, son?

[00:22:11] Yeah. I was kidnapped along with the children and held at gunpoint. Oh dear goodness me. You're talking about young cops here, Tom. I was at the Gabba the other night in Brisbane to see the cricket. Oh yes. Never been at a cricket match in my life. Yes. It was a T20. And we went as a family with the kids and all that, my nephew and niece. And it was great fun. The sports over here, I've discussed this with you before. Sport over here is all family. It's all great fun. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:41] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So on the way, the traffic was so congested and there's cops everywhere directing traffic. And I'm using that term in the very loosest sense. They were on points duty and there was plenty of them, but it was obvious that some of them

[00:23:08] were nine days in the job and they had no idea. They had that look in their face, Tom, that you'll know very well as a deputy chief when you see rookies at Tully Island or whatever that are coming to, or their first day on the shift or whatever, that bewildered look. They have absolutely been thrown in at the deep end with cars coming at them from all angles, horns beeping, buses with supporters, all the rest of it.

[00:23:34] And of course, you and I know that the key to it is to have somebody in total control of it that knows what they're doing. There didn't seem to be that. Yeah. Didn't seem to be that at all. Were you ever in points duty? I was. I was. Simon, when I started out, I started out in Gayfield Square Division, which took in Princes Street and we still had permanent police poids at that time. So my first year in the job, I mean, I didn't join the police till I had a year service because

[00:24:04] my first year was spent directing traffic. And do you know what? There's actually, yeah, there's actually, there's actually a real skill to it. Yes. Oh yeah. For sure. A real skill to controlling the junction, particularly if it's a four way junction, about keeping the traffic flowing. Yep. And we were taught by some of the older fellows who worked permanent day shift and they were permanent on point duty. Just some of them were reaching the end of their service. Yeah. And to see them working.

[00:24:33] Oh yeah. It's a work of art. Complicated. Yes. Some complicated junctions. And funny story. The traders and people that pass used to, used to hand things to you as you went past. Used to hand you a biscuit or a sweetie or whatever. And one time I was, I was standing on this point and a man came by in a, in a van and handed me a watermelon.

[00:24:58] So I put it, so I put the watermelon down behind me, you see, and I'm working on the point on the junction, walking back and forward. And of course, what did I do? I tripped over the watermelon. I think these days you would need to give them it back. I think that'd be corruption these days. That'd be serious. Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I know. I'd have to fill in a register for the watermelon. There was a famous guy. I don't remember them as a policeman.

[00:25:26] It was before my time, but as a boy, I remember them at Kikkadans in Glasgow. Kipperkill Road meets Maryhill Road meets St. George's Road. And it's a real, it's only a four way junction, but it's a cracker. And he used to stand, he had a wee stand that he stood up a few steps on to him. It was a fixed point before the traffic lights were as sophisticated as they are now. But I swear to God, he never took his hands off his lapels the whole time. And he had the whistle in his mouth, obviously. The whistle did all the talking.

[00:25:55] And he had his hands on his lapels and his fingers. And everybody knew him so well. And he knew the junction so well that he kept the flow going. Absolutely. And he would keep it rolling. And he'd see cars coming. And we, of course, we in Princess City, you were always looking for the boss's cars. You were all looking for the chief constable's cars and things like that. He'd try and spot that. And you'd give him the watermelon. You'd give him the watermelon. I could talk all day about, and maybe we will someday,

[00:26:24] stuff in Danoona, Cowell Games and things like that. Some of the points duties, fantastic stories. We'll come back to him. But that was triggered by this lad, Rob, who stayed on teaching after that experience and had a long successful career, we're told. That's right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he's quite amazing. It just shows you that he probably, having survived that first episode in the first nine days, he probably thought, well, I can do anything now.

[00:26:51] We're going to come back to this because you mentioned about it being a bit of a shambles and that we've got a case today about organised crime later on. And we'll talk in a bit more detail about the organisation of criminals and how they tend to go about their business. We'll come back to that. I think we'll have a wee break for an advert later. Next case, Tom was a cracker. Jodie Harris, she was a piece of work, wasn't she? Manipulative and very focused.

[00:27:19] I always found these people, especially female con artists, very, very focused. They were absolutely intent on what they were doing and very, very good at it like she was. She was a take on, wasn't she? Very much so. Yeah, I know what you mean. I mean the very, very focused and completely unprincipled. Yeah. And this girl, Jodie Harris was completely unprincipled.

[00:27:47] Unusual in that usually when you get these sort of con artists like this, they're usually men. Yeah. It's not usually women, but there you are. But I mean, incredible, you know, stealing documents, online fraud. And of course, she starts up a relationship with a police sergeant. Yeah. Must have been Lothian and Bob, doesn't it? I think. I'm glad to say she never came anywhere near Lothian and Bob.

[00:28:17] Good. We had enough trouble without people like that. Oh, dear, dear, dear. But yeah, I mean, fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. It's something we've never really spoke about, Tom, is the discipline side of your job as well, as Deputy Chief Constable Lothian and Bobbers. And you just hinted at it there. But in a force of three and a half thousand, and Strathclyde was a bit bigger than that again, there's always incidents, there's always things going on, isn't there?

[00:28:45] Even in a police station with 20 or 30 men and women working in it, there are always things, complaints, there are always absences and sickness and things going on all the time. Is that a big part of your job? Oh, it was a very big part. And I have to say, Simon, a part I didn't really enjoy. Right. I mean, towards the end of my service, I was the Director of Operations for the force as well as the DCC. But DCC, of course, has got the statutory disciplinary function.

[00:29:14] Just tell us what DCC is for the listeners, Tom. Sorry, Deputy Chief Constable. Every force has got to have. And the Deputy Chief Constable is the designated disciplinary officer for the force, as well as being the deputy. And I had the additional responsibility of the Director of Operations, which I enjoyed immensely, I've got to say. But as you did the job, you realised that there were absolutely no bounds to which people couldn't get themselves into trouble.

[00:29:43] I mean, it was absolutely incredible. Yeah. Incredible. And a lot of it was people who just got into bother with a good heart, who were trying their hardest and were trying to do the right thing, and who erred. And that was fair enough. Yeah. And then you got the people who were just stupid. True. I mean, just stupid. You know, and I used to say to them, I mean, setting aside what you've done,

[00:30:11] you know, you've got to ask yourself whether you're fit to be a police officer if you make such an obvious mistake. Yeah. And then the last, there was another category who, there were a group of people that were good cops, but they just always had to have the last word. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. There were those that would turn and walk away and just leave it, and there were people who just couldn't help themselves. And of course, you know, even then, and especially now,

[00:30:41] everybody's got mobile phones, everybody's got recording devices in their top pocket. It's just so dangerous. Yeah. You've just got to be really, really careful and just not let, I mean, you may think that you're dealing with a complete numpty, but you better not, you better not say it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Especially these days, of course. There was a few really bad ones too. I mean, really bad people, bad folk, but to be honest, Simon,

[00:31:11] not that many. No. Not that many, really. Not that many. I mean, they go on about corruption and they go on about corruption, the police and all this, but to be frank, the vast, vast, vast majority of people that I saw and I worked with and who worked with and for me were actually decent people. Yes, they made mistakes. Yes, they had flaws. We've all got flaws.

[00:31:37] But, you know, there were decent people and there was not the level of corruption that you would think there would be if you read the papers, if you took it, you know, if you took it to what's in the media. And what I was always saying to people, Tom, that said to me about corruption and the police, and whenever things did go wrong when you get a bad apple, and of course they exist in every walk of life, I would say that I was always astounded by the level of corruption in the police.

[00:32:24] And I used to say it's absolutely astonishing that police officers managed to control themselves. They do and conduct themselves the way they do because it's investigated. And it's incredible to me that we don't fall by the side more often. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's right. I used to say to people that most of the critical operational decisions in the police service

[00:32:50] are taken by very, very young officers at four o'clock in the morning when it's raining and when tensions are high and where people are shouting and bawling or are injured or whatever. And it never failed to amaze me how often they got it right. Yeah, yeah. That's true. You know, and at the end of the day I used to come in eight o'clock in the morning in the office

[00:33:19] and know that for the previous 12 hours or 14 hours or 16 hours all these hundreds of policemen have been out there working and dealing with some very, very difficult things, which I was ultimately responsible for. But, you know, and I've got to say, I was always very, very surprised how often they got it absolutely right. Yeah. Jodie Harris, obviously, beguiled this sergeant in Victoria.

[00:33:48] He will be the first to fall by the wayside to those types of temptations, but we have no idea what I never picked up on her. Remember the spy that we covered, the beautiful spy? Vera, Vera Erickson. Yes. Yeah. We never got an impression of that here, but I think that's what's going on here. I think she was a piece of work. She knew that and she used a feminine attraction, shall we say, to her best advantage. And the poor sergeant fell.

[00:34:17] He was in love with her and fell by the wayside. He did redeem himself to them because that was what was used to trap her, was her relationship with him, because she thought she had them by the shot and curlies. But the police managed to use that relationship to catch it. Absolutely. No, I think that's right. No, there's no doubt about it. Jodie was the kind of person that didn't do a thing for no reason. Yeah. If she got into a relationship with this sergeant, it was for a reason.

[00:34:45] And I think you can assume, looking at her character and looking at how she operated, that it wasn't just because she liked him. The fact that he was a police sergeant was certainly a factor in that. She would have seen that as being of some advantage. Of course. Or at least to help her disguise herself. Yes. It was good cover, wasn't it? Absolutely. And maybe he had access to information that would be of use to her. Again, we come to that rehabilitation thing with this case, Tom.

[00:35:14] And it's maybe one thing that our deep, deep dive team are a wee bit naive about, because they're not police officers. I don't think they've ever been involved in law enforcement. And they seem to be quite taken with the fact that people rehabilitate. I can't see past her just using that as a con again. I don't think people are that change entirely. But she went on to become the advisor and helping the police and helping.

[00:35:43] And again, digital crime came into it again. That was the digital trail. And a big, big part of her makeup was the false identities and whatnot, which all have to be stolen. They have to be able to be trackable. So it's something that we touch on every episode now is the value of looking after your identity, your online digital identity. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. That's right. Okay.

[00:36:11] The organized crime that I was talking about was our next case. And this was the mob in Chicago. One of your favorite subjects, because I think you worked with the FBI at some point, Tom. I don't like to talk about it, Sam. All right. As you know. Sorry, we can edit that out. Yes, I did. We can edit that out, Tom. I know you don't want to. Yeah. The famous Sam Giacana. Yeah. Interesting. He's a name.

[00:36:39] You hear his name with Al Capone mentioned in the same breath. He was one of the big bosses. And of course, he was the one that always gets mentioned as tied up with JFK. Yes. The connection. And the deep divers didn't mention this, but I feel sure that I've read that in fact, he helped JFK, but his real connection was with old Joe Kennedy, JFK's father. Right.

[00:37:07] Who had been a bootlegger back in the days of prohibition. Right. That was where old Joe Kennedy was heavily involved there. And I think the connection would be with Joe originally. And then Giacana would see John F. Kennedy as being a rising man and come in to support him. And of course, there was all the story about Frank Sinatra's involvement with John Kennedy and all the rest of it. And about them sharing girlfriends.

[00:37:38] And the other thing that interests me about Giacana was this Cuban connection and the attempt to bring down Castro. Castro. And I've read some very interesting stuff about the origins of the mafia. And of course, about Las Vegas, about establishing Las Vegas. But also, there was a fantastic gambling enterprise in Cuba. Right. Pre Castro. The ruler at that time was a man called Batista, as I recall.

[00:38:06] And Batista was totally corrupt. And he allowed the organized crime to establish themselves in Cuba. And whatever Castro was, and he was undoubtedly a despot, he wouldn't have anything to do with organized crime. So it was very much in Giacana's and organized crimes interests for Castro to fall and to reestablish some kind of, you know, a regime like Batista so they could get back in there

[00:38:35] and organize the rackets. Yeah. And of course, the deep dive team seemed to be a wee bit shocked that the CIA would have a finger in the pie there. But we know that law enforcement functions by, if not maybe cooperation isn't the word that I'm looking for. But law enforcement has to have close links with criminals and crime bosses, etc., etc., in order to control what's going on to some degree.

[00:39:02] Because at that level, Tom, at the level of bosses and the mafia, these guys would take over the election process. They would take over the unions. They would run the show eventually if you left them with free reign. By the same token, you can't close them down entirely. So there has to be a relationship there. There has to be an acceptable working relationship, I would suggest. Yeah, well, that's true.

[00:39:28] I suppose the greatest example of that was when the, during the Second World War, when the Allied armies were going to invade Italy through Sicily, who better to approach the mafia in New York, who would all come from Sicily. Yes. You know, it's okay. You may say, well, that was unprincipled, they're criminals, etc., etc. But when you're involved in a war, then all these considerations are secondary.

[00:39:58] If you can get good intelligence, and the thing that the organized crime would have, and the mafia would have, would be first-class operational intelligence. Yeah. The kind of stuff that you need when you're, when you're mounting a big operation. So it didn't surprise me. That didn't surprise me at all. Yeah. And it's the same with right down to, to CID level in our own streets, that you have to, you have to be aware of what's going on, and the people that know what's going

[00:40:27] on and have got, and sometimes a major crime blows up, Tom, a child abducted, I'm thinking a case that I had, or something similar to that. When you need to cut the corner and go straight to the criminal and say, here's the deal, to get the information to solve that particular crime that you want to solve. Because the greater good, I think is maybe the term I'm looking for, the greater good is of more importance.

[00:40:52] As you're saying there in a war situation, the more grave the situation is, then the more compromise has to be made sometimes. We had some trouble in Lothian and Borders with informants that got out of control. And that's, that's another story. But I remember my old boss in the CID, my old Detective Chiefs of the Union, Brian Cunningham, used to say, look, he said, if I could get information out of the Women's Guild, I'd speak to the Women's Guild. Unfortunately, they've got nothing to tell me. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:21] You know, so if you want information about criminals, you've got to talk to criminals. That's, that's the, that's just the reality of it. And you've got to, you've got to keep that relationship straight. You've got to be very careful about it. But that's where your information lies. You will not get the kind of information, generally speaking, from the Women's Guild. And by this way, just for the sake of the record, I don't want to denigrate anybody who's listening from the Women's Guild for a very fine organisation.

[00:41:52] Well said, Tom. You covered us there. We could be in real trouble. We've said a lot of controversial things on here, but you were getting close to the edge there with the... Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. No fury like the Women's Guild. Absolutely. No, no, no. That's it. Tom, the final wee bit about the organised crime thing there. And it's a great story. I'd recommend anyone listen to that and have a wee look into it in more depth. Like you obviously have, as you would expect. You always have.

[00:42:20] But organised crime, that whole, the books that have been written are incredible about that whole set up and over the period of the sixties and seventies. And prior to that and how the mafia was born in the States, how it came to be to protect the rights of the immigrants at the time. But the thing that struck me was, I think we use this term organised crime too much now. It was never a term when I was in the police, when I was an operational detective. We've given them that organised crime tag.

[00:42:49] And the truth of the matter is, and it's not even an iceberg here, the organised part of it is a tiny wee bit above the surface, right? That's where the bosses lie. That's where the money is. That's where you end up in Dubai and you never touch drugs. You would never get caught with anything near you. You would be immune at that point. But you're the boss. The organised part of it is fine. 99% of it is absolute chaos.

[00:43:18] And I know this because I've worked within these gangs undercover as well. And really there's a randomness to everything. And you and I know that some of the guys at the bottom of the pile, they wouldn't even be able to write their own name, never mind organise something. It's a shambles at that level. And that makes it very dangerous. And it also makes it very, very difficult to predict anything because it's not organised.

[00:43:42] It's absolute, like the kidnapping of the one in seven million dollars and the drugs and all that. They can organise a wee bit of it where they point a gun at someone and take them hostage. After that, it's a bit like Johnny Romensky jumping the wall at Peter Head. He's got no idea what he's going to do after that. Well, that's right. I mean, I mean, the thing is, they talk about organised crime groups. Now, that's just another name for gangs. Yes. We've had gangs.

[00:44:10] And many of the gangs that I first met were actually families. They were actually, it was actually a family. It was just, they were just criminal families. Yes. But as you say, I mean, some of the, oh dear, I mean, we used to run informants and armed robberies were the thing in the 1980s. Yeah. And we'd be all set up for an armed robbery. This is going to happen. This is going to be the car and this is going to, the first person through the door is going to be so-and-so. And then the last person out, you've got to let him escape because he's the informant. Oh dear.

[00:44:40] And then of course, you're all, you're all set up and you're all on the plot and nothing happens. Nothing happens. And, and you phone the informant and say, what happened? Oh, the driver slipped in. Yeah. Yeah. Simple as that. The driver, or the car wouldn't be stopped. Oh no. And you feel like, look, do we have to buy you a new? His wife wouldn't let him out. His wife wouldn't let him out. He's watching the winds. Would you, would you, would you have to buy you a new battery for your car?

[00:45:10] Yeah. So. Yeah. We've got a whole squad plotted up for hours round about a bank or whatever. And in fact, often in these cases when, when it did come off on the rare occasion they did come off, you got a fright. Yeah. That's right. They're actually, they're actually here. But it was always different. It had always changed. We had one Tom in the East end of Glasgow, honest to goodness. We had three in one day, but this was the first one. And we had information.

[00:45:39] One of the lads had got a turn that the, the takings from the pub were going to be taken round to the bank at half past nine in the morning. This was a regular occurrence and, and he was going to get mugged on the way around. Quite straightforward. A couple of grand. So we were plotted up round about it and we had the getaway vehicle. We'd been told what the getaway vehicle was. And, and we're, we're plotted up and we get a radio message to say the getaway vehicles changed. It's now a different Reggie number, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:46:09] And we're all wondering how on earth did he get that? Because he's in the boot of a police vehicle at the moment. He's in the boot of one of our police vehicles that we'd fitted up for surveillance, looking out the back of the light on his street. And he's, we found out later that the informant had come up and chapped, chapped the lid of the boot. Bang, bang, bang. The motor's changed by the way, big man. It's a Duff Road motor. He's talking to the boot of a car to tell it that the.

[00:46:41] So it's one of those surprising ones, Tom, we were all sitting in a quarter to 10. And it goes down and he grabs the money and he runs down the lane, runs past a cop car that the deals are just getting out of up onto a railway embankment. And he runs along the railway embankment being pursued by cops. Honest to God, she's thinking back because we're, I'm in the car arriving at it and I can see them.

[00:47:06] I can see the silhouette of the Ned running along the embankment with a cop, a friend of mine running behind him. And he could have put his hand out and grabbed him. That's the truth of the matter. But he had this baseball bat with him, the cop. And he just wanted to take the guy's legs away. So he took a backswing to hit the guy's legs and knock them down the embankment. And he tripped himself up. And he fell down the embankment.

[00:47:37] Needless to say, the wee guy got away. We got him the next morning at his mammy's house and got most of the money back actually. But great fun. Keystone, job stuff. I remember when I was a very young uniformed cop, the CID came and said, right, why don't you do a job boys? And you're going to go into the stair, right? And there are going to be three men coming running out of the stair. Okay. You've got to arrest the first two and let the third one escape. See, because that's the informant, right? Okay. Okay.

[00:48:07] And so you arrest the first two, the third one. Okay. That's fine. So we were all there, all went down. And lo and behold, the first two, they ran out of the back door. And only the informant came out the front door. And he got hit by a baton. And remember, and he's up in the Western, he's up in the Western general getting stitches in his head.

[00:48:37] Yeah. And the DS is going about his head. Oh, that's the last time I'm going to get you. Oh, boss. Listen, wait. Well, it's a subject we'll come back to many times. I just wanted to knock that myth in the head about organising. In case our listeners think that there actually is such a thing as very organised, at the level on the streets and people that are committing crimes and thefts and whatnot,

[00:49:06] they're really not the brightest. Well, we're very close to the birthday of Robert Burns. And as he said, the best laid plans of mice and men, you're after glee. Never was there a truer word spread. That's for sure. Both for the criminals and the police. Aye, that's true. Yeah. Good stuff, Tom. We'll touch on the mob many, many times. Of course, we've got another episode of Climetime Inc.

[00:49:32] Mike Bonventry in New York, who was part of that whole set up in his own way. It's worth a listen to. But our final case this week was back to Australia again. It was back to, and quite recent, Tom, April the 13th, 24, just less than a year ago. And this was the Bondi Junction. A very strange one was a knife this time. Normally you expect these types of things to be, well, we've recently seen a motor vehicle being used as a weapon, just in the last few months.

[00:50:01] But this was a knife. And I mean, baby as well, a nine-month-old baby, not killed, but wounded. Very tragic, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Yeah. The thing is, the motor vehicle, that tends to be more of a planned thing. This was a mentally disturbed man. Yeah. There were clues in his background, obsession with weapons, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm. He goes into a shopping centre and just in a few minutes manages to attack and kill six people.

[00:50:30] I've got to say, all credit to a young woman inspector. Yeah. Obviously she's in some sort of office job and she's out for lunch or something, but she's carrying her arm and she goes in and she's unsupported. She goes in and shoots him dead. No messing. Yeah. No messing. I remember at the time, Tom, thinking, good girl. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That's what I thought. I said, well done you.

[00:51:00] No messing, no faffing about. Because I mean, well, you and I have both carried guns as police officers and there's one thing carrying a gun and there's one thing being able to hit a target. There's another thing having the guts to actually use it in operations. And the truth is that unless you've done it, you do not know. You can think what you like and you can guess what you like,

[00:51:28] but you know, it's only when you're put to the test that you know. Yeah. And she was put to the test and she came up trumps very much so. So what was also very interesting about that case, of course, was all the misinformation. Yeah. The links with Islamic attacks. That's right. The social media stuff. Again, the media. Almost every case that's covered by our deep dive team, the media get a mention, Tom. Yes. Because they play such an important part in these major inquiries and these big incidents like this. Yeah.

[00:51:58] As well as we know they do. Yeah. It's great that we've got Jane Hamilton coming back with us and coming on our live shows with us to give us that perspective from the media because she's been there. And as you mentioned earlier, her new book that she's got coming out, looking forward to hearing all about it. That's right. It will be coming out in the summer. And yes, it's going to be great. Good. Good. The thing about the bond, I think, Tom, is first responders that struck me.

[00:52:27] It's just worth mentioning all the first responders like the inspector Scott who found herself in that situation and dealt with it. And then had to try and resuscitate the guy that she'd just shot as well. Which just shows you, it lets our listeners who are not police officers, it lets them see the quandary that we often find ourselves in between protecting life and preserving life. For a police officer, life is the most important thing above everything else.

[00:52:55] And here she is having to take a life to protect life and then has to try and save a life of the perpetrator. Well, that's right. I mean, the thing is, what she had to do was stop him. What she had to do was stop further attack. Yeah. But I've used enough firearms in my time to, it always used to annoy people, oh, why couldn't you shoot to wound somebody? Yes. I said to people, no, that's for John Wayne. That's, that's for the movies. Yeah.

[00:53:23] When you're actually using a handgun, cause you just shoot for the center of the body. Yeah. And you've got to assume if you hit someone with a three, five, seven or a nine millimeter round, you've got a good chance of killing them. Yeah. That's the truth of it. Yeah. I was always, always had it in my head, Tom. I've had my batten training from way back in Tully Island in 1978 that you never take out your stick, as we called it.

[00:53:50] The old battens that we had down the leg of our trousers back in the day, you never take it out and the rest, you're going to use it. You take it out when you've made the decision that you need to use it to quell the situation, to sort things out. That's right. You never take it out to threaten somebody, to hold it up and say, you better behave yourself and I'll hit you with this, cause they'll take it off you. Well, they may. Well they may. Yeah. That's happened before. Yeah. So it's the same with your firearm.

[00:54:19] If you take your firearm out to fire, then you're going to give the warning, you're going to let them know, but when you make the decision to pull the trigger, then you're shooting for the center of the body. And that's because, because it's become critical. You wouldn't be threatening to shoot somebody if it hadn't got to that stage where things have got to be stopped one way or the other. It's been a great deep dive session. But before we go, Simon, I've got one more question for you from the quiz book. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. Right.

[00:54:48] I've been reading up. Well, this is one. Can you tell me the name of your quiz book by any chance? This is, this is, I could do that, Simon. I could do, but I'm not gonna. Yeah. Okay. Right. In which city, in which city was Paul McCartney busted in 1980 after jetting into the country with half a pound of marijuana in his baggage? This is right on that street. Tokyo.

[00:55:17] Because it's me that he phoned for advice, obviously. Simon, congratulations. That's the first question you've got right. Well, I've got one for you this week. And it's about, and it's about death, which is very appropriate on Crime Time Inc. People think that shark attacks are probably the biggest cause of death here in Australia.

[00:55:43] But I've found one even more than that, even worse than going in the water with the sharks. And it's on dry land. Right. Have you any idea what that might be? I'll tell you there were 13 deaths last year caused by this. Well, I give you multiple choice. Well, it's either a spider or a snake. Okay. So I'll give you multiple choice. A spider. Right.

[00:56:11] And there's lots of poisonous spiders here. Snake. There's plenty of snakes about. And this might be a wee clue. Vending machines. 16 people were killed here last year by vending machines falling on top of them. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Very dangerous thing. I love that. Very dangerous thing. It's a vending machine. Absolutely. So gambling. Gambling is a dangerous habit.

[00:56:40] There's no question of that. Tom, the other thing I wanted to mention before we go was, I saw a thing on the television the other night here in Australia that they're doing a British crime special. And they've got lots of old British TV programmes coming on. And your favourite's among them. What's that one? Vera. Oh. I know you modelled yourself on her.

[00:57:10] With a hat. Yeah. It did. Just for the record, Paul McCartney spent nine days in the city's narcotic detention centre before he'd been deported. Yeah. And Wings 11 day tour was cancelled. Yeah. And that haunted him for a while because America and all the rest of the world had frowned on it very much. So it just shows you how things have changed. But when I first went up to meet him and met Linda,

[00:57:38] it was a very, very frosty reception. I thought that bringing out my warrant card would open doors like it normally does, Tom. You know what I mean? When you bring out that card and say CID, normally people say, oh, officer, how can I help you? Or what's happened? But she said, and? What is it you want? The thing was that she probably mistook you for a real detective. It was only when she got to know you that actually you were just a groupie.

[00:58:07] I've just realised that Paul McCartney's came up twice in this episode and I wasn't the one that mentioned him. I think you'd be getting a wee bit obsessed with it. You want an introduction? Is that what it is? Not at all, no. I just found these two quiz questions. Yeah. And I was trying to cut you a break. And you got one right. So well done. I'm going to find out the name of that book. In fact, I think it's on record. I think it was on a podcast around about Christmas time when you got it. It was a gift.

[00:58:38] It's the best gift you've ever had. It's the best gift you've ever had, that book. It is truly the gift that keeps on giving. Tom will speak soon. Our deep dive team are keeping busy just now. So I look forward to chatting about more cases with you very soon. Take care. And listen, watch out for vending machines. Watch out for vending machines. Always. Always. Cheers, Tom. Bye-bye.

[00:59:17] Tom, I think these daily episodes are a game changer for us. I'm really enjoying it. They are, Simon. And there's a lot more to come. Looking forward to it. Tune in tomorrow for another exciting True Crime episode. Thank you.