Countdown to Chaos

[00:00:13] Welcome to Crime Time Inc where we, two former murder squad detectives take you beyond the headlines and into these investigations Every crime scene tells a story every piece of evidence reveals a truth Sometimes the most revealing cases are the ones we thought we knew all about Some episodes contain discussions of real crimes that may include graphic descriptions of violence

[00:00:40] criminal behavior and references of a sexual nature that some listeners may find disturbing The details presented are included for factual accuracy and to provide a complete understanding of the investigation as experienced by law enforcement Listener discretion is strongly advised Wenn ihr Fans von True Crime und mehr seid

[00:01:07] und ihr früher vielleicht sogar X-Faktor das unfassbar geguckt habt dann wird euch unser Grusel- und Mystery-Podcast zum Mitraten Geschichten aus dem Altbau sicher gefallen Josh und ich erzählen in jeder Folge zwei gruselige oder übernatürliche Geschichten und ihr dürft am Ende jeder Folge miträtseln ob die Geschichten einen wahren Kern haben oder ob wir uns die ausgedacht haben Die Auflösung gibt es dann immer in der Folge-Episode Anhören tut sich das Ganze dann in etwa so

[00:01:34] Moin und herzlich willkommen bei Geschichten aus dem Altbau Ich bin was ganz perfid mal versporen Dem Grusel-Podcast mit dem X-Faktor Ihr lernt hier auch einfach was Voller schauriger Ereignisse Mysteriöser Vorkommnisse Und unerklärbare Phänomene Meine Geschichte trägt den Titel Quid.Quo Stubenarrest Du bist hier der Liebling Ich bin immer nur der zum Draufhauen Es war ihr Vater Ein markerschütternder Schreien vor jemandem Er grinste sie an

[00:02:03] Ich sag, du hast es ausgedacht Kann so eigentlich nicht passiert sein Die Geschichte ist falsch Das ist kein Wort, das macht man so nicht Bis zur nächsten Geschichte aus dem Altbau On April 20, 1968 Martin Marty Melcher Terry's stepfather and Doris Day's husband Died after a brief illness

[00:02:31] Though Terry and Marty weren't particularly close Terry shared an unusually intimate bond with his mother Their relationship had evolved over the years Into something resembling siblings Rather than parent and child During their marriage Doris Day had completely entrusted Marty With all financial decisions It was a traditional arrangement for the era She focused on her stellar career Making films and records While he managed the money As one of Hollywood's brightest stars

[00:03:00] Day commanded impressive earnings She naturally assumed she had accumulated Substantial wealth over her decades of success Following Marty's death Terry stepped in to help his mother Review her financial situation What they discovered was nothing short of devastating Terry's investigation revealed a horrifying truth Marty Melcher and his business partner Had systematically depleted every penny Of Doris Day's fortune

[00:03:28] The situation was even worse than zero She now faced overwhelming debt And substantial tax liabilities to the IRS In Hollywood Perception can be everything The revelation that America's sweetheart Was financially ruined Could have been catastrophic in multiple ways If word spread throughout the industry That Doris Day was broke Producers would likely exploit her vulnerability By offering insulting salaries Knowing she desperately needed work

[00:03:57] Even more concerning Was the potential impact On her carefully crafted public persona For decades fans had embraced Doris Day As the quintessential wholesome Perpetually optimistic good girl If her admirers The very people who purchased movie tickets And records Discovered this facade didn't match reality Her career could collapse entirely Terry Melcher Immediately launched into crisis mode He worked relentlessly to salvage

[00:04:26] Whatever remained of his mother's assets While desperately trying to prevent the truth From leaking to the press Or industry insiders This wasn't a quick fix Resolving the financial disaster Would ultimately consume Nearly five years of his life Eventually, a judge would award Doris Day Almost $23 million in damages From Marty Melcher's investment partner However, collecting even a fraction Of this judgment Proved exceedingly difficult

[00:04:54] But during the critical period Of late 1968 and early 1969 Terry Melcher's sole focus Was protecting his mother's Remaining property from creditors Just before Christmas He and his girlfriend Candace Bergen Made a significant decision They vacated their rental home On Cielo Drive And relocated to a beach house Owned by Doris Day While they informed close friends About their new address People like Greg Jacobson

[00:05:24] Dennis Wilson And Rudy Altobelli They generally attempted To keep the move Under the radar Melcher essentially disappeared From the social scene When not working At Columbia Records Studios With artists from his roster He was consumed With untangling His mother's complicated Financial affairs Much to Manson's Growing frustration Terry no longer appeared At the industry parties Where Charlie had previously Sought him out Even though mutual friends

[00:05:53] Like Jacobson and Wilson Respected Melcher's privacy They would occasionally Reassure Manson That they'd mention to Terry That Charlie was eager To connect But despite Manson's Relentless efforts To establish contact Melcher had withdrawn From his previous Social circles His world now revolved Entirely around Accountants and attorneys As he fought to salvage His mother's Financial future This critical detail A simple change of address

[00:06:22] Motivated by a family Financial crisis Would become one of the Most consequential Real estate moves In criminal history When Terry Melcher And Candice Bergen Vacated the main house At Cielo Drive The property's owner Rudy Altobelli Faced a landlord's Universal concern He didn't want his Premium rental Sitting empty for long The arrangement Had been ideal Altobelli lived In the smaller Guest cottage While collecting Substantial rent From the main residence

[00:06:53] Immediately after Melcher and Bergen's Departure Altobelli had his Sight set on tenants Who could afford His asking price Of $1,200 monthly A considerable sum In 1969 He began actively Networking Letting industry Contacts know That this exclusive Property was available The Hilltop Sanctuary Offered two things That were priceless In Los Angeles Gated privacy And an unobstructed Breathtaking View of the city Below

[00:07:21] Altobelli had Specific requirements For his next tenants Ideally They would be Connected to The entertainment Industry And crucially Would be comfortable With Altobelli himself Continuing to occupy The guest cottage On the property He wouldn't have To wait long Before the perfect Candidates Expressed interest By June 1968 Roman Polanski Had firmly Established himself As Hollywood royalty His psychological Horror film Rosemary's Baby

[00:07:51] Had become a massive Commercial and critical Success Transforming the Polish director Into an American Celebrity Virtually overnight His wife Sharon Tate Whom he had married In January Of that same year Was on a different Trajectory in her Career Though strikingly Beautiful Tate hadn't yet Achieved stardom Her resume Included a Supporting role In the melodramatic Valley of the Dolls An appearance In her husband's Film Fearless Vampire Killers And a nude

[00:08:20] Pictorial in Playboy magazine Photographed by Polanski himself In industry circles She was viewed As the archetypal Hollywood starlet Extraordinarily attractive But not yet Recognized for any Particular acting Prowess Typically cast As visual enhancement Alongside more Established performers With Rosemary's Baby Cementing Polanski's Status as a Major directorial Talent The couple Needed a Permanent Los Angeles Residence Even though Their work Frequently Took them

[00:08:50] To England And continental Europe Finding suitable Accommodations Had proven Challenging They'd Temporarily Settled at Chateau Marmont In a Sunset Boulevard Apartment Then rented Actress Patty Duke's House In the Hollywood Hills Neither Location Felt right The couple Sought a Residence That reflected Polanski's Newly Elevated Position In the Industry Something Grand Impressive A physical Manifestation Of having Mated In Hollywood Throughout This period

[00:09:20] Of housing Uncertainty They hired A housekeeper Named Winifred Chapman Anticipating More settled Domestic Arrangements Despite Her glamorous Public image And provocative Modeling work Sharon Tate Reportedly Harbored Traditional Aspirations For home And family When news Of Altobelli's Available Property Reached Them Polanski And Tate Were Immediately Intrigued Their House Hunting Had Gained Sudden Urgency Sharon Had Discovered She Was Pregnant On

[00:09:50] February 12th 1969 She Placed A Call To The Property's Previous Tenant Terry Melcher Inquiring About his Experience Living At Shallow Drive Melcher Enthusiastically Endorsed The Residence Armed With This Positive Review Polanski Contacted Altobelli Directly Negotiations Progressed Rapidly And Just Three Days Later On February 15th The Couple Moved In They Were Instantly Enamored With The Property Recognizing That Its Spacious

[00:10:19] Layout And Picturesque Setting Would Impress Their Extensive Social Circle Both Polanski And Tate Were Known For Benefited Everyone Involved Given The Couple's Frequent Professional Travel Having The Property Owner On Site Provided Security And Peace Of Mind

[00:10:49] Altobelli Acknowledged That His Own Schedule Sometimes Required Travel As Well But He Promised During Any Overlapping Absences He Would Arrange For A Responsible Caretaker To Temporarily Occupy The Cottage America

[00:11:32] America Not overtly Antagonistic Toward Minorities And A Supporter Of Government Programs To Aid Them He Fundamentally Viewed Black Americans As Inferior To His Staff He Once Explained The Key Is To Devise A System That Recognizes This While Appearing Not To As Summer Approached Riots Erupted In City Ghettos And Young White Radicals Shifted From Studying Peaceful Protest Tactics To Pouring Over Blueprints For Homemade Bombs Signs Of

[00:12:01] Impending Chaos Were Everywhere But Charles Manson Ignored Them At Spahn Ranch Preparations For Helter Skelter Were Set Aside Yet Again Terry Melcher Was Coming Charlie's Fury When Melcher Stood Him Up In March Had Given Way To Desperation To Impress Him Now In May Even His Most Devoted Followers Could See That Nothing Mattered More To Their Leader Than Securing A Record Deal On May 18th As He Awaited Melcher's Arrival The Keenest Observers Among The Family Noticed Something Unusual

[00:12:31] Charlie Was Nervous Melcher Arrived At Spawn Ranch Ready To Get Down To Business His Time Was Limited He Wasn't Interested In Pleasantries Or Indulging The Girls Charlie Seized The Moment Melcher Agreed To Listen To His Music Fetching His Guitar Charlie Launched Into His Performance As The Women Stripped Humming And Providing Percussion With Tambourines And Wooden Clappers They Danced In The Dusty Sunshine Swaying To His Songs Charlie

[00:13:01] Poured Everything He Had Into The Audition And Terry Listened Intently During A Break Charlie Attempted To Engage Melcher In A Philosophical Discussion About Living Without Restrictions And Thriving Off Society's Discarded Scraps But Melcher Wasn't Interested He Was Here For The Music Not The Family's Ideology Charlie Resumed Playing And When He Finished He Waited For The Moment He Had Dreamed Of A Non-Committal

[00:13:31] He Acknowledged That Some Of The Songs Were Interesting And Mentioned A Friend Session Guitarist Mike Deasy Who Had A Mobile Recording Setup And Might Be Intrigued Melcher Promised To Return With Deasy And As A Parting Gesture Handed Charlie $50 The Only Cash He Had On Him To Help With Ranch Expenses As Soon As Melcher Left The Family Gathered Around Charlie Had He Landed The Record Deal Charlie Faced A Dilemma Even At His Most Self Delusional He Couldn't

[00:14:01] Ignore The Fact That Melcher Had All But Passed But Charlie Couldn't Amit Failure Not To Himself And Certainly Not To His Followers So He Spun The Story Melcher Had Given Him Money Surely A Signing Bonus And He Was Returning Soon With A Recording Van In Fact Charlie Had The Deception Worked To The Family The Audition Had Been A Resounding Success How Could It Be

[00:14:31] Otherwise Charlie Was Infallible In Reality Melcher Had Left Convinced That Manson Had No Musical Talent Later He Would Recall That Charlie Songs Were Below Average Nothing He Saw Manson As Just Another Struggling Hippie Musician Lost In The Sea Of Hopefuls Crowding Sunset Boulevard All Singing About The Same Themes Of Peace And Revolution Still He Kept His Word And Arranged For Deezy To Visit Spahn Ranch On

[00:15:19] On June 6th Melcher Deezy And Greg Jacobson Arrived At Spahn Charlie Performed Again With The Women Providing Background Vocals And Percussion But In A Disastrously Misguided Attempt At Hospitality Someone Slipped Deezy LSD He Suffered A Terrifying Bad Trip And Melcher And Jacobson Had To Escort Him Home As They Left Charlie Followed Desperately Trying To

[00:15:49] Salvage The Opportunity Then Out Of Nowhere Randy Starr A Veteran Stuntman Who Frequented The Ranch Appeared Drunkenly Waving An Old Six Shooter To Melcher The Scene Was Almost

[00:17:30] Charlie Surrendered Charlie knew Melcher Had Been His Last Real Shot At A Record Deal But He Wasn't Ready To Quit Just Yet That Summer He Made A Few Last Ditch Attempts To Find A Patron Bobby Bo Soleil Pitched His Music To Frank Zappa Gypsy Played His Recordings For Paul Rothschild The Producer Of The Doors Charlie Even Performed

[00:18:00] For Mamas And Papa Singer Cass Elliott They All Passed With Each Rejection His Frustration Deepened After This Short Break You'll Hear About The Manson Family Creepy Crawls Charlie's Followers Were Engaged In A Systematic Campaign Of Home Invasions That Served As Both Training Grounds And Psychological Conditioning For More Violent Acts To Come The Creepy Crawl Was Exactly What Its

[00:18:31] Homes While The Residents Slept Completely Unaware Of The Intruders Moving Through Their Personal Spaces These Weren't Traditional Burglaries Though Items Were Occasionally Taken The Primary Purpose Was Far More Disturbing The Creepy Crawl Missions Began In The Summer Of 1969 Under Cover Of

[00:19:01] Area Dressed Entirely In Black They Would Methodically Approach Houses Where The Occupants Appeared To Be Asleep Using Skills Developed Through Repeated Practice They Would Locate Unlocked Doors Or Windows Surprisingly Common In The Late 1960s Even In Wealthy Areas And Silently Enter The Homes Once Inside The Family Members Would Move With Painstaking Care Walking Heel To To To Minimize Sound Sometimes Even Crawling

[00:19:31] On All Fours Across Carpeted Floors They Communicated Through Hand Signals And Whispers Navigating Through Strangers Homes While The Residents Slept Just Rooms Away What Makes These Invasions Particularly Disturbing Is That Theft Wasn't The Primary Objective While They Occasionally Took Money Or Small Valuables What They Called Getting The Goods The Real Purpose Was Psychological And Preparatory According To Multiple Family Members Who Later Testified Or Gave

[00:20:01] Interviews Manson Instructed Them To Rearrange Furniture Slightly Move Personal Items To Different Locations Or Leave Subtle Signs Of Your Prized Possessions In Different Places Yet Nothing Obviously Stolen The Psychological Impact Of Knowing Someone Had Invaded Your Home While You Slept Would Be Devastating The Most Chilling Aspect Of These Creepy Crawls Was Their Purpose Charles Manson Had

[00:20:31] Multiple Motivations For Sending His Followers On These Night Time Missions First They Served As Training Exercises Teaching Family Members How To Enter Homes Undetected And Move Silently Through Occupied Spaces Second They Functioned As Psychological Conditioning Gradually Desensitizing His Followers To Breaking Society's Most Basic Taboos With Each Successful Invasion The Line Between Unthinkable And Doable Blurred Further For Young People Already

[00:21:00] Isolated From Mainstream Society And Heavily Using Psychedelic Drugs These Experiences Further Eroded Normal Moral Boundaries Third These Missions Reinforced The Power Dynamics Within The Family Participants Would Return To Spawn Ranch Exhilarated By Their Successful Missions Strengthening Their Commitment To Both Manson And The Group's Increasingly Apocalyptic Ideology Most Disturbing Of All The Residents Whose Homes Were Invaded Likely Never

[00:21:30] Knew They Had Been Targeted Many Probably Attributed Missing Items To Their Own Forgetfulness Or Dismissed Subtle Changes In Their Homes As Imagination A Few Might Have Realized Something Was Amiss But Finding Nothing Obviously Stolen May Have Never Reported The Intrusions In His Twisted Vision Manson Saw These Activities As Preparation For Helter Skelter His Apocalyptic Race War Fantasy The Creepy Crawls Were Gradually Escalating In Boldness

[00:22:02] 1869 The Creepy Crawls Represent One Of The Most Disturbing Examples Of How Manson Systematically Broke Down His Followers Inhibitions Against Violating Others On Charlie's Orders They Began Stealing More During Their Creepy Crawls Prioritizing Items They Could Trade Sell Or Use Especially Credit Cards Charlie's Rhetoric Grew More Violent Why Not Escalate The Creepy Crawls Maybe They Should Start Tying People Up Terrifying Them Maybe

[00:22:31] Some Piggies Needed To Die Piggies Or Pigs Was The Term They Used To Describe The White Establishment Elite Death He Preached Was Nothing To Fear Life And Death Were The Same He Began Asking His Followers A Chilling Question Would You Die For Me Under His Influence Both Psychological And Chemical They Assured Him They Would But Cracks Were Forming Some Wanted Out Pat Crenwinkle Ran Off With A Biker Only For Charlie To Track Her Down Awestruck By His

[00:23:01] Ability To Find Her She Returned Willingly Convinced Of His Supernatural Powers Charlie Couldn't Prevent Every Defection Especially Among Those He Had Sent Ahead To Death Valley While He Remained At Spahn Ranch Word Word Reached Him That Brooks Poston Had Left Barker Ranch To Work With Prospector And Rival Guru Paul Crockett And That Juanita Had Also Deserted Marrying One Of Crockett's Partners Charlie Needed An Uprising Something He Could Present To His Followers

[00:23:31] As The Beginning Of Helter Skelter So They Believed They Had No Option But To Stay But The Blacks Weren't Cooperating He Told Paul Watkins That Any Delay Was Due To Black People Being Too Stupid To Know How To Start Helter Skelter It Was Going To Happen That Summer Charlie Declared And If Necessary He Would Be The One To Show Them How That Was Too Much For Watkins The Next Time Charlie Sent Him To Barker Ranch To Check On Things Watkins Defected To Paul Crockett As Well

[00:24:01] Charlie Had Lost His Most Effective Recruiter Determined To Keep The Rest Of The Family Together He Planned To Move Them To Death Valley Where They Would Be Even More Dependent On Him Of Course Crockett Was Out There But Charlie Had Plans For Him Then The Family Suffered Another Loss This Time Through Arrest Spawn Ranch Hand Turned Family Member Steve Clem Grogan Also Known As Scramble Head Was Jailed For Child Molestation And Indecent Exposure He Explained

[00:24:30] To Police The Kids Wanted Me To The Thing Fell Out Of My Pants And The Parents Got Excited Despite His Reputation As The Dumbest Family Member Clem Was Useful To Charlie So Long As The Tasks Weren't Too Complicated Now He Was Gone With No Chance Of Securing A Record Deal Through L.A. Contacts Charlie Was Desperate To Leave But Money Was An Issue

[00:25:00] Without It They Couldn't Survive Long In The Desert Drug Deals Were The Fastest Way To Get Cash And Charlie Decided To Work Another Contact Besides The Straight Satan's Bikers Luella Tex Watson's Former Girlfriend From His AWOL Months Was Still Dealing On July 1st Tex Called Her Claiming He Had 25 Kilos Of High Quality Weed Luella Agreed To Bring In A Buyer Who Would Front $2,500 Skim A Kilos For Herself And Make A Nice Profit

[00:25:30] What Tex Didn't Tell Her Was That Everything Went Wrong Luella His Buyer Was A Large Imposing Black Dealer Named Bernard Crow Known As Lots of Papa Tex Got The $2,500 Up Front But Lots Of Papa And His Crew Kept Luella As Collateral Warning Tex In Graphic Detail What Would Happen

[00:26:00] To Her If They Were Ripped Off Tex Swore He Was on the level, then took the money to Charlie at Spahn. Soon, Lotsapapa realized he'd been scammed. He called the ranch, demanding Tex. Charlie stuck to the script, claiming Tex was gone and unreachable. But Lotsapapa escalated the threat. He claimed to be a Black Panther and promised to return with an army to kill everyone at Spahn Ranch if he didn't get his money or his weed.

[00:26:27] Charlie took this threat seriously. In prison, he had been intimidated by Black Muslims, and since his time in Berkeley, he believed the Black Panthers were deadly to anyone who crossed them. His helter-skelter prophecy relied on Black militants spreading chaos among whites. In reality, by the summer of 1969, the Black Panther Party was fractured and in no position to launch an attack on Spahn Ranch. Lotsapapa wasn't even a member, but Charlie believed

[00:26:56] him. He needed the money, and he couldn't let the family see him back down. Certain he was cornered, Charlie told Lotsapapa he would meet him at his apartment in North Hollywood. Taking family member T.J. Walleman with him, Charlie explained the plan on the way. He would tuck a handgun in the back of his pants, and once inside, Walleman would pull it out and shoot Lotsapapa on Charlie's signal. As usual, Charlie wanted someone else to do the dirty work.

[00:27:25] Lotsapapa had two associates with him. Walleman lost his nerve, forcing Charlie to pull the trigger himself. According to Walleman, the gun misfired at first, but then Charlie shot Lotsapapa in the chest. The man collapsed. Charlie waved the gun at the others and fled with Walleman back to Spahn. Furious at Walleman for panicking, Charlie bragged to the family that he had killed a Black Panther,

[00:27:49] but he remained terrified of retaliation. Convinced a Panther hit squad was coming for them, he armed family members, placed bikers on lookout duty, and ordered constant surveillance of the ranch. Every Black visitor was treated with suspicion. When a bus full of Black passengers passed by the front gate, Charlie pointed it out as proof that the Panthers were scouting them. He wanted Helter

[00:28:14] Skelter to begin with a black attack on whites, but not on him. He used the Lotsapapa shooting to convince the family that the race war was imminent. They needed to raise money and flee to the desert before they got caught in the crossfire. Meanwhile, the armed guards stayed on watch. As former family member Gypsy later put it, it wasn't peace and love and hippies anymore. It was almost like an army.

[00:28:40] But the family needed reinforcements. With recent defections and Clem's arrest, Charlie relied on Gypsy to recruit. Days after the shooting, she found a promising candidate. Linda Kasabian had just arrived in Topanga Canyon. In 1968, she and her husband Bob had lived in a New Mexico commune before their marriage fell apart. Linda took their infant daughter to her mother's

[00:29:05] home in New Hampshire while Bob drifted to Southern California. By mid-June 1969, he reached out, inviting Linda to reconcile. She and her daughter Tanya joined him in Topanga Canyon, where he lived with a hippie philanthropist named Charlie Melton. Bob had a grand plan. He and Melton were going to South America buy a boat and sail around the world. Linda wasn't sure she wanted that. The reconciliation

[00:29:31] wasn't going well. It felt like nothing had changed, and she didn't want to be stuck on a boat with Bob. She also didn't want to return to New Hampshire. Then Gypsy showed up, visiting Melton as a friend. She and Linda talked, and Gypsy introduced her to the idea of the family, a place where Linda and Tanya would be loved and cared for. She invited Linda to visit Spahn Ranch. Linda accepted, and once there,

[00:29:57] she quickly connected with Tex Watson. They spent the night together, and Tex encouraged her to steal money from Melton before coming back to stay. Linda was hesitant but wanted to impress the family. She took $5,000 and, with Tanya in tow, brought the money to Spahn. Only then did she meet Charlie Manson. He took the money, checked out Linda's legs, and learned she had a valid driver's license.

[00:30:23] That was enough. She and her daughter could stay. Tanya was sent off with the other family children. Some family members found Linda cold and unlikable, but Charlie wanted her there, and that was all that mattered. Then, on July 19th, Clem stunned everyone by returning. Sent to Camarillo State Hospital for psychiatric evaluation, he had simply walked away and rejoined the family. The next day, the world watched as Neil Armstrong

[00:30:50] and Buzz Aldrin walked on the moon. At Spahn Ranch, the family dismissed it as fake. Nothing was real unless Charlie said so. And Charlie wasn't thinking about the moon. He was thinking about money. It was time to force his so-called friends to prove their loyalty by giving him cash. If they refused, he would take it. Charles Manson was growing increasingly paranoid and desperate.

[00:31:14] One of his primary meal tickets was slipping away. Beach boy Dennis Wilson had become Manson's obsession. After months of parasitic living in Wilson's mansion, the relationship had soured. Wilson was trying to distance himself, but Charlie wasn't having it. Manson pursued Wilson relentlessly. When he couldn't find the drummer in person, he left ominous messages. At one temporary residence,

[00:31:40] Wilson discovered a chilling note. You can't get away from me. The threat was unmistakable. Another time, and this detail still sends shivers down my spine, Charlie left just a single bullet. No note necessary. The message was crystal clear and Wilson understood exactly what it meant. But by late July, Wilson had become too elusive, constantly moving, surrounded by friends and

[00:32:05] bandmates who were increasingly aware of Manson's dangerous influence. Charlie needed to shift his attention and his predatory instincts elsewhere. Enter Gary Hinman. Hinman seemed the perfect target. A music teacher who supplemented his income dealing drugs, Hinman had accumulated modest assets. Two cars and enough savings to be planning a trip to Japan. In Manson's eyes, this meant Hinman had

[00:32:31] resources that rightfully belonged to the family. In Charlie's twisted philosophy, Hinman faced a binary choice. Join the family, surrendering all possessions and bank accounts to Manson or hand over whatever cash he had available. There was no third option. Bobby Beausoleil provided the perfect pretext for confrontation. Beausoleil had recently acted as a middleman in a drug deal gone wrong. He'd paid

[00:32:57] Hinman $1,000, money that came from a motorcycle gang called the Straight Satans, for what was supposed to be a thousand tabs of mescaline for a planned party. After sampling the drugs, the bikers claimed the batch was contaminated. These weren't men you wanted to disappoint. The Straight Satans were furious, demanding Beausoleil returned their money. Manson saw opportunity in this crisis. He convinced Beausoleil

[00:33:25] that any confrontation with Hinman should extract not just the Satan's $1,000, but additional funds to finance the family's impending helter-skelter desert escape. At minimum, Hinman's two cars would fetch something on the market. It's important to understand that Bobby Beausoleil occupied a unique position in this deadly constellation. He was never fully integrated into the family. Instead, he and Charlie

[00:33:51] maintained a friendship of convenience, their interests occasionally aligning like dark stars. Both men had pressing reasons to appease the Straight Satans. Beausoleil feared physical retribution if he couldn't refund their drug money. Manson, meanwhile, valued the bikers as muscle. His frontline defense should the Black Panthers attack spawn ranch, a persistent paranoid fantasy in Charlie's deteriorating mental

[00:34:17] state. Beausoleil had zero interest in following Manson to Death Valley. The apocalyptic helter-skelter vision belonged to Charlie alone. Yet Bobby saw no harm in helping finance Manson's desert exodus by extracting money from Hinman. It was, in his mind, just another hustle. Friday, July 25th marked the beginning of the end for Gary Hinman. That afternoon, longtime family member Bruce Davis drove Bobby,

[00:34:44] Mary Brunner, and Susan Atkins to Hinman's residence. This wasn't a social call. Beausoleil came armed with both a knife and a handgun, tools of intimidation that would soon become instruments of something far worse. After Hinman welcomed them inside, his final act of hospitality, Beausoleil immediately demanded his $1,000 back. Hinman, genuinely confused, insisted there must be some misunderstanding. The drugs he'd sold were fine,

[00:35:13] he claimed. There was nothing wrong with the mescaline. Unmoved, Beausoleil instructed Susan Atkins to hold Hinman at gunpoint while he searched the house for valuables worth $1,000. If Hinman wouldn't provide cash, perhaps the Satans would accept merchandise as compensation. In a desperate bid for survival, Hinman attempted to grab the gun from Susan's inexperienced hands. Beausoleil leapt to her defense, and in the ensuing struggle,

[00:35:41] the gun discharged. The bullet missed everyone, embedding itself beneath the kitchen sink, a mute witness to the escalating violence. Beausoleil, significantly stronger than the slight music teacher, quickly subdued Hinman. What followed was brutal. Beausoleil beat him repeatedly, demanding all available cash. Hinman insisted he had none, his pleas falling on deaf ears. Eventually, broken and terrified,

[00:36:08] Hinman reluctantly agreed to sign over the pink slips to both his vehicles, a Volkswagen bus and a Fiat station wagon. Together, they were worth more than the $1,000 in dispute. For Hinman, it surely seemed a small price to pay to end this nightmare. He couldn't have known that this was just the beginning. What Gary Hinman didn't realize as he signed away his vehicles was that he had just witnessed something

[00:36:34] profoundly dangerous, the family's first taste of successful violent coercion. A threshold had been crossed, and in the coming days, his situation would deteriorate from frightening to fatal. After the break, we'll explore how this hostage situation evolved into the Manson family's first murder, setting the template for the horrific violence that would shock the nation just days later.

[00:37:00] Beausoleil was satisfied on his own behalf, but Charlie's financial needs still had to be considered. He called Charlie at Spahn Ranch, explaining that even after a severe beating, Hinman continued to deny having any money. Charlie was certain Hinman did and wanted it. Just before midnight, Bruce Davis drove Charlie to Hinman's house. Charlie brought his sword, and when Hinman protested that he didn't understand

[00:37:26] what was happening, that he had always been a friend to the family, Charlie slashed the blade along the left side of Hinman's head, nearly splitting his ear in half. Charlie snarled that he expected Hinman to give Beausoleil everything he had. Then he and Bruce returned to Spahn. For the rest of that night, all of Saturday and well into Sunday, Beausoleil continued to beat Hinman while Susan and Mary

[00:37:52] pleaded with him to hand over his money and end his suffering. Hinman still insisted he had nothing to give. Beausoleil repeatedly called Charlie at Spahn with reports of no progress. At one point, Hinman threatened to go to the police once Bobby and the two women finally left. That was something Charlie couldn't allow. If Hinman talked to the police about his drug deals with the family and

[00:38:16] Charlie was arrested, any investigation might uncover his murder of Lotsapapa. As a multi-time offender on probation, Charlie knew he would be facing a maximum sentence. During a final Sunday phone call, Beausoleil told Charlie, he's got his ear hacked off and he'll go to the police. Charlie replied, you know what to do. Hinman had to die, and if he did, his murder might as well advance

[00:38:42] Charlie's prophecy of helter-skelter. The Black Panthers were much on Charlie's mind after his confrontation with Lotsapapa. He decided to frame them by telling Beausoleil to leave evidence implicating them. The panther's symbol was a paw print. Bobby stabbed Hinman several times, and as he lay dying, he dipped his hand in Hinman's blood and pressed a crude paw print onto the wall. Then,

[00:39:06] using a glove-covered finger dipped in the pooling blood, he wrote political piggy near the print. Beausoleil, Susan, and Mary tried to wipe away all their fingerprints, but missed a few. They stole a set of Hinman's bagpipes, then drove his Fiat and Volkswagen bus back to Spahn, waiting for news stories about how the Black Panthers had viciously murdered a white man in his home. Two days passed,

[00:39:33] and no reports emerged. Beausoleil returned to Hinman's house to see if the murder had been discovered. It hadn't. Later, back at Spahn, he remarked on the eerie sound of maggots eating away on Hinman's corpse. Worried the bloody paw print could be traced back to him, he tried to scrub it off, but the blood had dried solid. He also made a second attempt to wipe down surfaces for fingerprints,

[00:39:57] but once again did a sloppy job. Careless with the murder weapon, he stashed the bloody knife in the tire well of Hinman's Fiat and kept the car for himself. Charlie, perhaps to cover the $1,000 debt, disposed of the Volkswagen bus, possibly giving it to the straight Satans. Charlie wanted the details of Hinman's murder kept secret from the rest of the family, but that proved impossible. Beausoleil

[00:40:23] wanted to brag. There was competition between him and Charlie. Charlie had earned bragging rights from shooting lots of Papa, and now Bobby had his own proof that he was a tough guy. He told straight Satan Danny DiCarlo, who passed the details to Tex Watson. Susan, unable to resist boasting, told the other women. When one asked what it was like, she replied, it was real weird and he made funny noises.

[00:40:49] Yeller, disgusted by Susan's remarks, decided to flee Spahn with a male family member named Bill. Before they left, they asked Pat Krenwinkel to come with them. Remembering how easily Charlie had tracked her the last time she left, Pat refused, but Charlie still lost two more followers. Kitty Lutesinger, Bobby Beausoleil's pregnant girlfriend, was also disturbed by what Susan had said and begged

[00:41:13] Bobby to take her away. He refused. On Thursday, July 31st, some of Gary Hinman's friends visited his house. They received no response when they knocked and noticed clouds of flies buzzing through an open window. Concerned, they contacted the police. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department had jurisdiction over Topanga Canyon. Officers Paul Whiteley and Charles Ginther investigated, found

[00:41:39] Hinman's body, and spent the next several days collecting evidence. The bloody paw print and writing on the wall were grotesque, but what interested the investigators more was a clean fingerprint lifted from the crime scene. Hinman's friends told the officers that both of his cars were missing. Whiteley and Ginther issued an all-points bulletin for the Fiat and Volkswagen. Meanwhile, Charlie was growing restless. Summer was

[00:42:06] waning, and Helter Skelter had yet to begin. The family's efforts to amass enough money to relocate to Barker Ranch had failed. The Black Panthers could attack at any moment. Two murders, Lotsapapa and Hinman could still be traced back to Spahn Ranch. Worse yet, ranch hand Shorty Shea kept offering to run the family off if George Spahn gave the word. Charlie needed to clear his head. He announced he would

[00:42:32] drive north to recruit new family members. Before leaving, he ordered everyone to stay on high alert for a Black Panther attack and continue preparations for their move to Death Valley. On August 3rd, Charlie left Spahn in a 1952 Ford delivery van using a stolen gas credit card along the way. Stopping for gas near Big Sur, he met 17-year-old Stephanie Schramm, a hitchhiker traveling from San Francisco to San Diego. Charlie turned on the

[00:43:00] charm, telling her everything she wanted to hear. Schramm, seeking an escape, fell for it. Charlie promised to eventually take her to San Diego, and she eagerly joined him. They took LSD and had sex. On August 6th, they returned to the Spahn for dinner. Schramm was put off by Charlie's followers, especially the women. Like Patricia Krenwinkel before her, she had believed Charlie would be her exclusive boyfriend. When she realized

[00:43:27] she had to share him, she hesitated. Charlie reassured her, promising he would be hers alone, for a while. The next morning, he drove her to San Diego to collect her belongings. At the same time, Beau Soleil, still in Hinman's Fiat, was caught near San Luis Obispo when the car broke down. Two highway patrolmen running a routine check found the APB on the vehicle and arrested him. In the Fiat's tire well, they discovered the bloody murder weapon.

[00:43:57] When L.A. Detectives Whiteley and Genther interrogated Bobby, he first claimed he had bought the car from a black man, hoping the fabricated Black Panther connection would help him. When the officers matched his thumbprint to one left at the crime scene, he changed his story, claiming he and two unidentified women had found Hinman wounded and tried to help. Detectives didn't believe him. Beau Soleil was transferred to L.A. County Jail and charged with murder.

[00:44:25] At Spahn Ranch, the family anxiously awaited Charlie's return. They needed his guidance, but he was still on the road, setting events in motion that would soon spiral out of control. On their way to pick up Stephanie Schramm's clothes from her sister's house in San Diego, she and Charlie were pulled over by a highway patrolman for an unspecified mechanical violation. The officer asked to see Charlie's driver's license, and Charlie had to admit he didn't have one.

[00:44:54] He was issued a ticket at 6.15 p.m. on August 7th for operating a vehicle without a license, and signed the carbon with his real name rather than an alias. Charles Manson and Stephanie Schramm returned, only to be met with bad news. Bobby Bo Soleil had been arrested. Bobby's brief call to the ranch from jail was meant to reassure Charlie that he was keeping quiet, but the unspoken message was clear.

[00:45:21] If Charlie didn't get him out, Bobby might start talking. He knew too much, not just about the murder of Gary Hinman, but also the shooting of Bernard Latsapapa Crow. The family was desperate to free Bo Soleil, but no one more so than Charlie. He had to act fast. Bobby was not a patient man. Even though he had never officially joined the family, Bo Soleil was still one of them.

[00:45:46] Everyone knew something about the Hinman murder, though only Susan and Mary Brunner, who had been there, knew what had happened. Death was the same as life. No action was wrong, and so there was little concern for Hinman. Instead, the focus was how to free their friend. Someone remembered seeing a movie about copycat murders and a killer subsequently being freed from jail? Maybe they could do something like that. This was only one suggestion in a meandering group discussion.

[00:46:15] Charlie would know what to do. Manson wrestled with a choice, run or fight. If Bo Soleil turned on him, Charlie needed to disappear, maybe head to the Northwest, Chicago, or Indianapolis, places he had been before. With the dream of a record deal dead, there was little reason to stay in L.A. He could start over somewhere new, recruit fresh followers. After all, people were always searching for someone to believe in.

[00:46:42] But he had spent years molding the family, carefully selecting and shaping them into loyal disciples. They still believed he was Jesus, still hung on his every word. He tested their devotion, floating the idea of leaving them behind. As expected, they begged him to stay. They were in this together and willing to do whatever it took. Ideas flew, breaking Bo Soleil out of jail, staging attacks. Someone suggested a copycat murder. That stuck with Charlie.

[00:47:11] The bloodied paw print and the words, Political Piggy scrawled at the Hinman crime scene had been meant to frame the Black Panthers, triggering a race war, helter-skelter. But Hinman wasn't high profile enough. If they were going to make an impact, the victims needed to be more prominent. And if that also helped get Bo Soleil out of jail, even better. Charlie instructed Lynette, squeaky from, to give Mary Brunner and Sandra Good some stolen credit cards

[00:47:40] and send them into town to pick up supplies. Then he gathered the family and delivered a chilling pronouncement. Now is the time for helter-skelter. Now is the time for me to hand you over to our two crime experts, Simon and Tom, after this quick break. Alex, thank you very much again. Fantastic. Really enjoying this. And you know, what you're doing is comprehensive antecedents.

[00:48:07] My first job on a murder squad, I was the antecedents officer. And the antecedents officer has to build up a picture of the deceased. And write a life story, obviously a very abbreviated life story of the deceased. And it's incredible how important it is. And just, Alex, for your information, it's tragic and it's funny. But the first murder I was on was a man involved in a fight.

[00:48:33] He had been killed at a bus stop in the east of Edinburgh and left lying dead. I was the antecedents officer, so I was tasked with finding all about how he'd lived his life. And I'm not going to name him, and you'll understand the reasons why in a second. I did a comprehensive review of his life

[00:48:59] Honestly, honestly, this guy, his family hated him. He was dishonest. He was an obnoxious drunk, which led to his death. He'd been sacked from his job for dishonesty. The neighbours hated him. He was antisocial. He lived off his old mother until she eventually died.

[00:49:23] Honestly, there was nothing worthwhile that I could find about his life. And the only thing that was notable, tragically, the only people that I had paid him any attention were the people investigating his murder. It's a very sad story to tell, but Simon, did you ever get involved in that? Because I found out what our older DCIs used to do was give the new boys the antecedents job, because it was an important piece of work.

[00:49:53] And it tested them, and you had to write a summary. But sometimes in the antecedents of the deceased lay a clue to the crime. So it was important as well. And I think what Alex is doing here, he's doing a magnificent antecedent report. Yeah. In all our police reports, Tom, I can only think that the reports that you and I and our colleagues sent to the Fisco were broadly the same. There was a pro forma.

[00:50:23] An antecedent history was a big part of that for the accused. That was great crime intelligence, filtered into criminal intelligence for future reference. But it's the same with the deceased. Yeah, we always had, there was always two on it. And it was a good job to get. It was a very interesting job. And you knew how important it was, because very often the clues to relationships and how the murder had come about, or whatever it was, had come about lay in the history of relationships and partnerships,

[00:50:54] family members, previous convictions. All of that can lie in the background there. So it was very interesting. And I agree with you 100%. It's exactly what Alex is doing here with this case. And that's why it's so fascinating, because we're getting to the bits that nobody's went to before. Yeah, absolutely. The focus has always been on the drama, hasn't it? Episode 8 starts with the death of the husband of Doris Day.

[00:51:20] So immediately you're bringing in one of the biggest stars of the day in America. So immediately you're distracted with the Beatles, some of the stars mentioned in all the episodes. But what we're doing is looking behind that to headlines, what was actually going on in the lives of these people as they were moving through this story. Yeah, I felt awful sorry for Doris. I didn't actually know that about Doris Day. What a shame. Because Doris Day was the perfect squeaky clean girl next door.

[00:51:48] The bonny, blonde, vivacious girl in all these films way back. And I'm really sorry that she ended up broke, having been fleeced by her husband. What a shame. Yeah. It was quite common back then, wasn't it? Females didn't have the same autonomy that they have now, of course, Tom. It was a different world that we were living in. Thankfully we've moved on from it. But especially child stars too, they were taken advantage of greatly during the stars. And abused, really.

[00:52:18] Yeah, absolutely. But what was interesting for me is I'm interested in tipping points. I'm interested in where things start to go wrong, where we start to see the breakdown. And I think the failure and the rejection of Charlie from his recording ambitions, the failure of the recording sessions that he did, I think that was a tipping point. That was the end of a dream for Charlie. Yes. It really was. Yeah. And the betrayal, as he saw it.

[00:52:48] Yes. With Wilson stealing his song that he thought was going to be the breakthrough song and all the rest of it. Changing the name of it, using it and never crediting Manson. So you can see all that perfect storm. It's incredible how all these different strands or spokes came together to create what was going to happen. Absolutely. And drives him from having a logical plan. He wasn't as good a singer or a guitar player as he thought he was.

[00:53:16] Actually, listening to Charlie singing, and I only heard him recently because we're doing this show. His voice is not that bad, but his guitar playing is pretty discordant. And clearly, it was part of his psyche that he wouldn't take advice. Yeah. So, I mean, there was a reference earlier on where he went to sessions to play and session musicians, who were obviously superb professionals, tried to give him advice on how to play.

[00:53:46] And he wouldn't take it. He rejected it. Because Charlie had a God complex, really. He trained his girls and his family to see him as the Messiah. Yeah. And he kind of thought that himself. He believed his own propaganda. Yeah. Exactly. That's a big problem. Start believing your own press releases and you're in trouble. It's interesting what you're saying about the studio, Tom. I was in a band when I was a young cop. And I was the least of them.

[00:54:14] There was five of us and I played keyboards. But I was very much in the background. The other four guys were much more serious musicians than I ever was. And at least two of them were very good. The guitarist and the drummer. We went into the studio. We played in a place called McTavish's Kitchen. And it was a big gig for us. We played there once a month. The boss of McTavish said that he wanted us to go into the studio and make a single. We didn't do original music at that point. We were only doing covers.

[00:54:43] But we wrote a song and went in. The B side of it was He Ain't Heavy and Old Holly's Number. And we only had a day. I think a day in the studio probably cost £200 or something like that. So we only had eight hours. And we spent the first four hours trying to figure out how to use a big mixing desk, how to use the studio to put down different tracks, different instruments. None of us had done it before. But the engineer in the place must have been fed up watching us.

[00:55:11] And he came over and said, what is it you've got? Here's what we'll do. And he just directed us for the next two or three hours. And we came out with a representable product. But we wouldn't have if it hadn't been for his expertise and patience. I can just see Charlie with his arrogance going in there and not having a clue because it's a different world. You mentioned in our last episode about boy bands and creating manufactured product for a market.

[00:55:38] That's what music producers and studios do. And Simon Cowell's still doing it to this day. Charlie was never going to be moulded like that. He had his own view. You mustn't change the lyrics. The lyrics are sacrosanct and all that nonsense. Whereas to be successful, you would have to go in and say, I'll do whatever you tell me. Whatever you say, I'll do it. Because you know what you're doing. Yeah. And we've talked about this before, haven't we, on Crime Time 8? About the Bay City Rollers and Tam Payton and the exploitation of young people, vulnerable people. Yeah.

[00:56:08] Simon, you've just dropped a fact bomb on us. And there's some questions that must arise from that. First, does the recording of you and your band still exist? Of course. We want to hear it on Crime J. Mick. Just listen to the Hollies. They did a version of it. No, no. I don't think we should listen to the Hollies, Simon. I think we should listen to you. The second thing is, so let's just put these facts together.

[00:56:34] However, you were a member of a band, most of which members were slightly more talented than you. Is that right? A lot more. A lot more talented than you. And there was four of them? And me. And you were the fifth. Okay. Now, let's just conjoin that with the fact that you're a close personal friend of Paul McCartney's. Maybe that's what got me in. Simon. Stop the bus. This is incredible.

[00:57:02] You are the fifth Beatle. Put down your tools. This is a new story. Simon Maclean was the fifth Beatle. And had he stayed with the band, they were crushed and burned. You were doing well there too. I can only keep being nice to you for so long. I had the title of my new book in my head. I could see your signature on the front of it. Yeah. What a fabulous story, the fifth Beatle. Yeah.

[00:57:31] And then you go and blow it all up like that. Maybe our team could cut it off at the positive bit there. No, no, no. Listen, I'll tell you what. The truth of the matter is you were right about that. Because no matter how talented you are, you do need backup. And this relates to us too, Simon, you and I. Because regardless of how talented we are, if our friend Chris was not there behind the desk, nobody would be hearing this right now. So.

[00:58:01] Next time we speak, we want to hear the recording of you. What was your band called? Horizon. Okay. Well, next time we've got to look over the horizon and hear Simon Maclean play. What were you, the bass guitarist? No, I was keyboards. Oh, you were keyboards? The plot thickens. But listen, I don't want to spoil my book. I want to re-release it when my book comes out, Tom. The fifth Beatle. New release in 2025.

[00:58:30] I was going to do it sooner, but the Beatles produced a new record last year. So I thought I'd wait until that was done and dusted. The thing is, Simon, it's a double irony really, isn't it? Because not only could the whole world of music have been changed for the better, but the whole world of law enforcement could have been changed for the better too if you hadn't joined the police. Can we move on now? All right. All right.

[00:58:58] Back to Charlie, the thing I noticed is there's been slight changes over the episodes and here we see Charlie starting to get angrier. You summed it up earlier when you said he was starting to lose the one thing he needed to keep this together, control, total control. But he's starting to lose that and getting angrier. They start moving towards crime. It's getting harder to feed themselves, clothe themselves, keep mobile and all the rest of it.

[00:59:25] He doesn't go breaking into houses, but he starts his family doing that and breaking into homes during the night, but not for profit all the time. No, that's interesting. The night intrusion thing is very interesting. And of course, the reason he did that was logical. It was to gain control, but also to gain expertise. It was almost like a training exercise, which is interesting. But then a strong thread starts to run through this now.

[00:59:52] Charlie cannot be seen to fail again. And he must know in his heart of hearts that his main ambition to be a pop star has failed. He's not going to be seen to fail again. But I've got to say, as he starts on the crime spree, you can see that it's amateur night at the movies. The first person they kill is a drug dealer. Now, that's not the first person to kill.

[01:00:21] Do not kill drug dealers. There's all sorts of consequences arising from that, always. This comes back to my point that he's actually lost the plot a bit and not very clever. The crimes are not clever either. Not in terms of the way they're committed and the evidence that's left, etc. And here we have the first question. You're actually wondering now why law enforcement, and we've spoken about jurisdiction a lot,

[01:00:49] why law enforcement was not onto this and starting to plot this sooner than it actually was. It's very interesting, Tom. There's so much going on and what we can't do, although Alex has done a great job of taking us back into that era. We can't put ourselves in those circumstances of what else was going on law enforcement-wise at that time. And probably drugs was the big problem they were trying to get a grip of because it was so new

[01:01:17] and was having such a profound effect on people's lives and splitting families up across the country. It was much more an unknown quantity in those days as well, Tom. We can look at controlled drugs now through the lens of everything we have learned over the last 40 years with interactions with laboratories and the Misuse of Drugs Act and the evolution of drug misuse as well. But that didn't exist then. It was brand new. It had mushrooms and all these things.

[01:01:47] And even the very term, probably hallucinogen, was a new thing as far as the public were concerned. So it was a different environment entirely, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Nobody knew. The other thing that struck me too was Charlie Manson's family. None of these girls, young men and women in his gang or families were local. Do you notice that? They were all people who were drifters in and out, attracted to the bright lights of LA.

[01:02:15] And I suspect that law enforcement, the LAPD, the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, I suspect they were inundated by people living on the fringes of society. And if you've ever visited that part of the world, there are vast areas of enormous landscape, isolated houses and little ranches and homesteads. You couldn't guess what was going on in some of them.

[01:02:42] And you certainly couldn't keep a grip of it with this enormous influx of people, many of whom were taking drugs of some sort. You'd be delighted to know, Tom, that I take this Crime Time Inc. podcast so seriously that I'm going over to do a bit of research myself in September, just like I did in Australia, so that we could see what was going on on the ground. And we're going over to California to do the same over there and make sure that all this information is 100% for our listeners.

[01:03:11] That's my motive. That's my real motive. So I'll be away for a month or so, but we'll keep you up to date. Listen, Simon, the expenses for the Australian trip have not been cleared. I have called in the auditor and there's some serious questions. So please don't book business class in the hope that you're going to get some X's from Crime Time because you're not. There's a committee. I'll go to the committee.

[01:03:39] You're not the deputy chief now. You're part of a democracy now, Tom. No, democracy. Democracy, you say? No. No. No way. John, we finished up here this episode. Brings us back to Helter Skelter and some of the Beatles stuff. The race war fantasy, really, that was Charlie Manson's.

[01:04:00] And fantasy is a great word in there because by now, I suppose at the start, he was maybe 5% fantasist and the rest was happening because they were finding places to stay. The sex was great. The drugs were great. The personalities he was bringing about were real. Gradually, we see that slip across the 50%. Now he thinks of himself as Jesus in the reincarnation. All of that is slipping towards total fantasy, isn't it?

[01:04:28] It is. And we are starting in episode 8. We're starting to see the decline. And I suspect as we go forward into episode 9, we'll start to see a very quick decline into a bloodbath. From a criminal point of view and from an investigative point of view, I think there's going to be a lot to talk about. And Alex, well done again. And we'll see you next week. You've been listening to Crime Time Inc.

[01:04:57] Where the investigation never truly ends. If you like this episode, please listen to some more. And it would really help us if you left a comment on whatever platform you're listening to this on. Thank you. Our team respects the victims of these crimes and their families. This podcast is produced with the intention to educate and bring clarity to complex cases that have shaped our criminal justice system.

[01:05:24] Crime Time Inc. is hosted by former detectives Simon McClain and Tom Wood. And our research team verifies all case information presented in this series. Visit CrimeTimeInc.com for more information about us. Join us next time for another great true crime episode.