Charles Manson: The Early Years

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[00:01:11] The day of the 50th hunger games. The fear of the streets of Panem is in the unerkening. I see how I try to hide the pain in the increase in the increase in the increase in the increase in the increase. If you are determined to lose everything, what you love, how much it is worth it then to fight? The tribute of Panem L. The day breaks now. Only now.

[00:01:42] The story of Charles Manson and his followers is like a vast and tangled spider's web, sticky with unanswered questions and intricate connections. It's a web so sprawling that it's hard to know where to begin. Most people have heard the name Charles Manson. It's become synonymous with evil, manipulation, and chaos. But few know the full story. A story that defies neat categorization and refuses to be tied up with a simple conclusion. And here's the thing.

[00:02:11] This story isn't finished. Not yet. New revelations continue to emerge, peeling back layers of mystery surrounding Manson, his followers, and the cultural forces that collided to produce one of the most infamous crime sagas in American history. There's information we already know, chilling details, shocking connections, and bizarre twists. But there's also information locked away, waiting to be uncovered.

[00:02:36] Someday, those secrets may come to light, deepening our understanding of what really happened. What makes the Manson murders truly extraordinary though, is the sheer number of high profile figures drawn into this grim tale. It's unique in the annals of crime. Where else do you find a cast of characters that includes the Beatles, the Beach Boys, Mama Cass Elliot, Doris Day, Angela Lansbury, Candice Bergen, Roman Polanski, and Sharon Tate?

[00:03:06] Celebrities who, whether by chance or design, found themselves entangled in the web of a manipulative cult leader and his deranged vision. The connections are so intricate and far-reaching that the story often feels more like a Hollywood script than real life. Manson and his followers exploded into the public consciousness late in 1969, when they were accused of a horrifying spree of murders in Los Angeles.

[00:03:33] The brutality of their crimes shocked the nation, and the media coverage ensured that their names would never be forgotten. But to truly understand this dark chapter in history, we need to rewind the clock. The story didn't start in August 1969. It began long before the bloodshed in the turbulent 1960s, amidst a counterculture movement filled with both promise and peril. In this chapter, we'll take our first steps into that web.

[00:04:02] We'll trace Manson's early years, exploring the formative experiences and societal forces that shaped the man who would become one of history's most infamous criminals. Because to understand the darkness that erupted in 1969, we have to begin where the shadows first took root. Hi, my name is Alex, and I'm your Crime Time Inc. host for today.

[00:04:28] In the rolling hills of Kentucky and the industrial towns of West Virginia, a story was unfolding. A story that would ultimately give birth to one of America's most notorious criminals.

[00:04:53] But to understand Charles Manson, we must first understand the woman who brought him into this world. Kathleen Maddox. Her story begins in Ashland, Kentucky, a town where religious conviction was as solid as the railroad tracks that ran through it. Nancy Maddox, Kathleen's mother, was a woman of unshakable faith. A devout Nazarene, she'd survived devastating losses.

[00:05:16] The death of her husband, Charlie, the loss of her daughter, Aileen, and her grip on biblical principles had only tightened. But Kathleen was different. While Nancy saw the world through the lens of scripture, Kathleen saw a life of restriction and boredom. The Nazarene Church's rules were suffocating. No dancing, no makeup, no freedom. And Kathleen was determined to break free. Her rebellion began innocently enough.

[00:05:44] Sneaking across the bridge to Ironton, Ohio, she discovered a world of dance halls and excitement. It was there she met Colonel Scott, a charming con man who would become the father of her first child, Charles. He wasn't a military man, bizarrely. Colonel was actually his name. After Kathleen informed Scott she was pregnant, he left her. Following Charles' birth, Kathleen filed and won a paternity suit against Scott,

[00:06:11] and he was ordered to pay a small amount of support on which he defaulted. Scott would go on to work for the Baltimore and Ohio Railway. He married twice, fathering more children, before dying of cirrhosis at age 44 in 1954. It is widely acknowledged that Charles never met his biological father. Kathleen named her baby Charles Mills Maddox after her late father.

[00:06:35] He would only keep this name a short while, as Kathleen eventually met and married William Eugene Manson, a local laborer whose last name she gave to her son. And so the name Charles Manson was born. Kathleen's marriage to William Manson lasted only three years. By 1939, Kathleen was a young woman hardened by disappointment. At 20 years old, she was a divorced mother with a four-year-old son, living on the margins of society.

[00:07:04] Her brother Luther had become her partner in crime, literally. On the evening of August 1, 1939, Kathleen and her friend Julia Vickers met Frank Martin at Dan's Beer Parlor. Martin was friendly, flush with cash, and buying drinks. But Kathleen saw an opportunity, not of romance, but of survival. In the ladies' room, she whispered to Julia about Martin's money. People like him always seem to have everything, she said. It was more than just a complaint.

[00:07:33] It was the spark of a plan. Martin treated them to drinks, seemingly unaware of the trap being set. Kathleen invited him to continue the evening, all while orchestrating a scheme with her brother Luther. They met Luther at Little Page Service Station. Luther introduced himself under a false name, John Ellis, and the group continued to the Blue Moon Beer Parlor. They drank, they danced, and all the while, a criminal plot was taking shape.

[00:08:02] I'll be back with those details after this quick break. When they drove out of town, Luther's true intentions emerged. With a ketchup bottle pressed against Martin's back, claiming it was a gun, Luther attacked. He struck Martin, stunning him, and robbed him of $27. Kathleen watched from the car, an accomplice in a crime born of desperation. But their plan was as amateur as it was audacious. They made no real attempt to hide their identities.

[00:08:32] Martin quickly went to the police, and within hours, Kathleen Luther and Julia were arrested. The trial was swift. Judge D. Jackson Savage showed no mercy. Luther received 10 years for armed robbery. Kathleen, who remained in the car during the attack, was sentenced to five years for unarmed robbery. When Nancy Maddox learned of her children's arrest, she pulled her granddaughter Joanne Close and whispered a haunting truth. Life is like always living under a big rock.

[00:09:00] Always look at it and pray that it won't fall on you. But the rock was falling. Luther and Kathleen were taken to Moundsville State Penitentiary, a prison known for its brutal conditions. And left behind was little Charlie, not yet five years old. No father, and now, no mother. It's 1939, and five-year-old Charlie is facing a life-changing upheaval. His mother, Kathleen Maddox, has just been sent to Moundsville Prison for five years.

[00:09:30] To a child, that might as well have been an eternity. Charlie is sent to live with his uncle Bill, Aunt Glenna, and cousin Joanne in McMeckin, West Virginia, a small, working-class town along the Ohio River. McMeckin was the quintessential blue-collar town. Men worked the mills, mines, and railroads. Women stayed home, raising children, and tending to the house. Life was simple, routine, and unchanging. But into this stable world came Charlie, a boy who didn't quite fit.

[00:10:00] From the start, Charlie was a handful. He lied compulsively, sought attention at any cost, and blamed others for his misdeeds. His new family tried to enforce structure, but it was an uphill battle. Joanne, only eight herself, was tasked with shepherding Charlie to and from school, and looking out for him, a responsibility she resented. When Charlie began school, things went from bad to worse. His teacher, the feared Mrs. Varner, ruled her classroom with an iron fist.

[00:10:31] Charlie, a tiny troubled boy, was immediately singled out. She seated him in the last row, marking him as a lost cause, and humiliated him in front of the class. His classmates avoided him, and bullies targeted him. By the end of his first day, Charlie ran home in tears, only to face his uncle's stern disapproval. Bill Thomas decided to teach Charlie a harsh lesson about showing weakness.

[00:10:55] The next day, he forced Charlie to wear a dress to school, a memory that would haunt him for the rest of his life. On another occasion, a playground confrontation where Joanne, all of ten years old, becomes a fierce protector. When a larger boy starts slapping her younger cousin Charlie, she doesn't hesitate. She jumps right in, and when the bully turns on her, she does something unexpected. She bites his finger so hard that he runs away howling.

[00:11:24] Her teacher is stunned. Joanne, typically a model student, suddenly in a playground scrap. But when she explains what happened, Charlie, in a move that would become characteristic, denies everything. He claims he just saw Joanne biting someone. But the teacher knows Joanne's reputation for honesty, and Charlie's for... well, not so much. Joanne decided that Charlie liked to start trouble, and then let somebody else get blamed for it.

[00:11:52] As you will find out later, this became a theme in Charlie's life, culminating in his worldwide notoriety. This was just the beginning of Joanne's complicated relationship with her cousin. Fast forward to another incident that solidified her opinion of Charlie. Left in charge of seven-year-old Charlie while her parents were away, Joanne was tasked with cleaning the house. Charlie, true to form, contributed absolutely nothing.

[00:12:20] Things escalate when Charlie, wielding a razor-sharp sickle from the yard, starts deliberately interfering with Joanne's chores. When she tries to remove him from the room, he challenges her with a defiant, Make me! And she does, shoving him out and latching the screen door. But Charlie's not one to back down. He starts slashing at the screen, and Joanne is convinced he intends to use the sickle on her. She's terrified.

[00:12:47] When Bill and Glenna return, they find a torn screen door and two very different versions of events. Charlie claims Joanne started it, but they don't buy it. He gets a whipping, though Joanne would later reflect that punishment made little difference to Charlie. In the years Charlie lived with the Thomases, he developed three notable interests. A fascination with sharp objects, a love for handling guns, and, somewhat surprisingly, an incredible musical talent.

[00:13:20] He could sit at the piano for hours picking out songs by ear, and he had a beautiful singing voice that emerged during reluctant church visits. Meanwhile, life for Charlie's mother Kathleen inside Moundsville Prison was grim. The prison, with its gothic castle-like facade, was designed to intimidate. Overcrowding, forced labor, and harsh conditions defined daily life.

[00:13:47] Kathleen endured her time quietly, hoping for an early release, while Charlie struggled under the care of a family that didn't know what to do with him. After three years, Kathleen was paroled, and in late 1942, Charlie was finally reunited with his mother. For a brief period, he experienced what he later described as the happiest days of his life. But that happiness was fleeting.

[00:14:12] Kathleen's struggles to provide stability, coupled with Charlie's growing behavioral issues, meant their troubles were far from over. When Kathleen Maddox was paroled in late 1942, she stepped out of the prison gates determined to start over. For her son Charlie, her return marked the end of a bleak chapter in his life. He was overjoyed to be back with his mother, who he clung to as his sole source of love and stability.

[00:14:42] But the fresh start they envisioned would soon unravel. Kathleen's struggles and Charlie's burgeoning behavioral issues created a perfect storm that set the stage for his troubled adolescence. One of the first things Kathleen noticed when she reunited with her son was that he tried to manipulate everyone, especially women. She realized that his interest in people was dictated by what they might be able to do for him.

[00:15:09] When he wanted to be, no one was more charming or persuasive than little Charlie. Kathleen's idea of stability was shaky at best. She tried her hand at low-paying jobs, often waitressing at small diners, but she also had a penchant for partying. On weekends, she frequented bars, often dragging young Charlie along. For a child yearning for attention, these smoky, chaotic environments became a stage where he learned to charm adults with exaggerated tales

[00:15:36] or perform impromptu dances for spare change. But when the novelty wore off, he was ignored, left to entertain himself while his mother drank the night away. Their living arrangements were just as unstable. They moved constantly, staying with relatives in dingy boarding houses or wherever Kathleen could afford. This nomadic lifestyle denied Charlie the chance to put down roots or make lasting friendships.

[00:16:02] He was the new kid in every school, an easy target for bullies and a magnet for trouble. Teachers described him as disruptive, a boy with a big mouth and a knack for lying. Charlie learned early that misbehavior got him attention, and he leaned into it. By the time he was 12, Kathleen had reached her limit. In a desperate attempt to curb his unruly behavior, she sent him to the Jabot School for Boys in Terre Haute, Indiana.

[00:16:30] Jabot was a Catholic reform school, its mission to turn wayward boys into disciplined, God-fearing men. For Charlie, it was yet another rejection. He resented being left behind and acted out with increasing defiance. He ran away several times, hitchhiking back to his mother, only to be sent back to the school. The cycle repeated until the staff at Jabot finally gave up on him. Charlie's next stop was Boys Town, a juvenile facility in Omaha, Nebraska.

[00:17:00] There he found himself among other troubled boys, many of whom shared his knack for manipulation and rule-breaking. He lasted just a few days before escaping with another boy. Together they stole a car and embarked on a spree of petty crimes, including robbing gas stations and breaking into stores. Their escapade ended when the police caught up with them in Illinois. At age 13, Charlie was sent to the Indiana Boys School in Plainfield, Indiana,

[00:17:29] a place that was anything but a sanctuary for troubled youth. Imagine a facility housing over 400 boys ranging from 10 to 21 years old. Some were there for incorrigibility, essentially being deemed unmanageable. Others, they were in for serious crimes like armed robbery and manslaughter. The discipline at this school was brutal. And I mean brutal. Physical punishment wasn't just a possibility, it was a routine.

[00:17:57] Staff had carte blanche to administer corrections that would make your skin crawl. Picture this, boys forced to duck walk. Imagine staggering around, hands clasping your ankles in excruciating pain. Or table bending, arching your back so your shoulder blades barely touch a table's surface. Just holding that position meant you couldn't walk normally for hours. But the physical abuse wasn't the only horror.

[00:18:26] When they weren't in class, and classes were frequently canceled because teachers would quit, these boys were essentially rented out as cheap labor. Local farmers would pay 50 cents an hour for their work, with the boys keeping just 30 cents. And here's the most chilling part. When staff weren't paying attention, smaller boys were vulnerable to physical and sexual abuse from older, more powerful inmates.

[00:18:53] For undersized boys like Charlie, the ultimate goal at Plainfield was not to reform, but to survive. When Charlie Manson arrived in early 1949, he found himself in an environment where his usual tactics of lying, intimidating, whining, and otherwise manipulating others to get his way were ineffective. For all Charlie's remarkable criminal record for one so young, he was a beginner compared to lots of other boys in Plainfield.

[00:19:20] He claimed later that he was almost immediately raped by other students, who sodomized Charlie with the encouragement of a particularly sadistic staff member. Such experiences led him to develop an almost detached view of rape, whether suffered by himself or others. He said 60 years later, you know, getting raped, they can just wipe that off. I don't feel that someone got violated and it's a terrible thing. I just thought, clean it off. That's all that is.

[00:19:51] Okay, I'll be back after this quick break. On October 1949, Charlie isn't just attempting his first escape. This is his fifth attempt. But this time, it's different. He's part of a massive breakout, the largest in the school's history. Seven boys, one mission. Get out. Most of the group managed to slip away, but Charlie? Classic Charlie. He's caught in less than 12 hours. A policeman in Indianapolis catches him red-handed, attempting to break into a gas station.

[00:20:22] But he wasn't done. February 1951, Charlie's 16 now and he's got more ambitious plans. This time, he teams up with two other 16-year-olds. Their escape plan? Simple. Steal a car and head west. No destination in mind, just away from Plainfield. And his new partner in crime? A guy named Wiley Centeney. Not your average juvenile. Centeney was in the boys' school for killing someone during a holdup. They're joined by another boy, Oren Rust.

[00:20:50] These three manage something remarkable. They evade capture for almost three days. Breaking into gas stations, leaving a trail of small-time crimes, they're living on pure adrenaline and survival instinct. Their freedom ends outside Beaver, Utah. Ironically, they're caught in a roadblock set up for an entirely different robbery suspect. Talk about bad luck. Back in Indiana, they face serious charges.

[00:21:17] The Dyer Act, driving a stolen vehicle across state lines. A federal crime. Centeney tries to explain to reporters that he escaped because of brutal beatings by school staff. But it doesn't matter. Their punishment? Transfer to the National Training School for Boys in Washington, D.C. A federal reform institution. Charlie is now 16 years of age. There, his manipulative tendencies became more refined.

[00:21:44] He learned how to ingratiate himself with authority figures while bullying weaker peers behind the scenes. But his charm couldn't hide his escalating criminal behavior. He stole, lied, and schemed his way through the system, earning him frequent stints in solitary confinement. Despite his rebellious nature, Charlie was intelligent, though unmotivated. Psychological evaluations from the time describe him as having a high IQ, but an inability to form meaningful connections.

[00:22:13] These early assessments foreshadowed the man he would become. A charismatic manipulator with a deep mistrust of others and a penchant for violence. A parole hearing for Charlie was scheduled for February 1952. All he had to do was stay out of trouble until then. If he did, his release was practically assured. But this proved beyond him. In January, Charlie was caught sodomizing another boy while holding a razor blade to his victim's throat.

[00:22:42] Consenting homosexual intercourse was forbidden at the camp. Forcible rape was considered an offense, second only to murder. Charlie not only lost his chance for early release. He was immediately transferred to the Federal Reformatory in Petersburg, Virginia. Now, 17, Charlie didn't attempt to make a good impression at the new location. Between his arrival on January 18 and a reformatory reporting period in August,

[00:23:09] he committed eight serious disciplinary offenses, three involving homosexual acts. Though Charlie remained small in stature, growing to only about five feet four, he now played the insane game well enough to act as predator much more often than victim. Even though the reformatory in Petersburg was considered high security, administrators despaired of keeping others safe from Charlie.

[00:23:34] In late September, he was transferred to a maximum security reformatory in Chillicothe, Ohio. But prison also gave Charlie something he desperately craved. An audience. Inmates were a captive crowd for his storytelling, and he relished the attention. He picked up the guitar during his time behind bars, spending hours teaching himself to play. Music became his escape, a way to distract himself from the grim reality of prison life.

[00:24:01] He dreamed of becoming a star, someone people admired, someone with power. The seeds of his later ambitions were planted during these lonely years. It was also during this time that Charlie discovered the power of manipulation in relationships. He had a knack for reading people, figuring out what they wanted, and giving just enough to keep them under his sway. This skill would later define his interactions, from friendships to romantic entanglements.

[00:24:31] Over five years, Charlie Manson had slid to the very bottom of the reformed school pit. There was no lower place left to go until November 12th, 1955, when he reached his 21st birthday and had to be set free. Any release prior to that was improbable. One evaluation declared that Charlie shouldn't be trusted across the street. Reformatory authorities who dealt with the worst delinquents in America concluded that Charlie Manson was beyond rehabilitating.

[00:25:02] Then Charlie shocked them all. He couldn't erase forced rape and other egregious offenses from his record, but he could appear to do by himself what reformatory professionals believed he couldn't achieve, even with their help. Become a model inmate and, once again, a candidate for early release. Throughout his life, Charlie would outwardly reform or at least summon the self-discipline to keep his worst inclinations under control for short periods.

[00:25:30] This time was by far the most extended. Beginning in the fall of 1952, Charlie stopped committing serious infractions. He spent all of 1953 working hard at academics. It was noted in his record that Charlie raised his general skills from a 4th to upper 7th grade level, and he can now read most printed material and use simple arithmetic. Charlie also shone in his assigned work in the Reformatory Transportation Unit,

[00:25:59] where he did maintenance work on the facility's cars and trucks. This background in automobile engine upkeep and repair would serve him well later on. Combined with his unexpected progress in class, Charlie's exemplary work record impressed the staff at Chillicothe to the extent that on January 1, 1954, he was presented with an award for meritorious service. Four months later, the prison recognized his apparently changed attitude in the most significant way possible.

[00:26:29] At age 19, and after seven years in six different Reform schools, Charlie was released to live with his uncle and aunt. Modern experts in child psychology, juvenile justice, and the history of the American Reform school system in the 1950s agree that Charlie's adult pattern of law-breaking and violence was virtually guaranteed by the experiences of his childhood. He had no nurturing father figure.

[00:26:55] While his mother loved him, Kathleen often battled her own demons at the expense of her son's emotional security. Charlie entered the Reformatory School jungle as an undersized, helpless 12-year-old who survived by convincing bigger, predatory kids that he was crazy. The most notable skills Charlie exhibited as a child were criminal. He could steal cars, break into small businesses, rifle safes, and commit armed robberies like a grown-up.

[00:27:25] His childhood was certainly troubled in ways that were no fault of his own. But there was also something in Charlie that consistently led him to act out in ways completely against his own self-interest. He made bad situations in which he found himself even worse. Charlie proved that again when he was released and returned to McMeckin. Now, I'm going to hand you over to Simon and Tom to hear their thoughts on this episode of the early years of Charles Manson.

[00:27:54] But in the meantime, I'll be back on Sunday with the next episode of this fascinating story that sees Charlie struggling to integrate into the McMeckin community, his moving to California, his introduction to the Beatles music, and Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. There's also an intriguing connection to the Barker-Karpus gang who we spoke about in Series 3, Episode 33. If you get a chance, you should go back and have a listen to that episode.

[00:28:25] So without further ado, here is Simon and Tom. Alec, thank you very much for that fabulous first episode of Manson. What a work you have done, my boy. Alec, check your availability because Simon's going to have a leg off and we might need a replacement. Wonderful. Simon, I don't know about you, but I have been most impressed by Alec. That was a fantastic scene setting and looking forward to the second chapter. What did you make of it?

[00:28:54] As usual, Tom, you think you know a bit about these cases because they've been so prevalent and it raises its head all the time, every year. There's been so many conspiracy theories around this as well. But it turns out after this first episode, I'm really, really looking forward to the rest of the series because it set the scene perfectly. Who would have known the way Manson was brought into this world in his early childhood? It really is a shocker, isn't it?

[00:29:21] It was, but you know, two things struck me. One is his childhood. And I was reading recently the obituaries of the great heavyweight boxer George Foreman. And he had a childhood almost exactly the same as Manson's. Yeah. And drifted into criminality and was a young street criminal. And then he chose a different path. Manson did have a dreadful childhood and a dreadful early upbringing.

[00:29:49] But that doesn't excuse him in any way for what he became. A lot of time for George Foreman and his grills were really good as well back in the day. I don't know what's going to happen to them now, Tom. But the thing about Manson was, and I suppose it's a truth, Tom, that there's lots of people brought up in poverty and adversity, broken homes. All of that thing goes on all over the world. And some people get greatness after that.

[00:30:17] They strive and get out of those circumstances and become achievers as Foreman obviously did. And other people go to the dark side. And that was Manson's choice. Episode one, I thought, was a fantastic foundation because it went back to his granny. It went back to the strict religious upbringing that his family were involved in. He was born in 1934 and his mother was only 16.

[00:30:42] And she obviously had big problems, single mother at that time, a different era altogether, when being a single mother held all sorts of stigma that thankfully we don't have now. And she was abandoned by Manson's father. His early years were chaotic. I think that's the word to use here. And his mother was involved in petty crime, reading between the lines, prostitution, anything really to make a living because she would be ostracized as a 16 year old mother.

[00:31:11] A very familiar story when you look at the background of serial killers and criminals that we've spoken about is this hard grinding poverty, violence, and the adaptability to manipulate people. And I think as we go through, we'll see that as a survival skill that Manson had and we'll see that manifest itself later on in the story.

[00:31:32] I haven't heard for a long, long time an introduction as detailed or as relevant as Alec's work here for Charles Manson episode one. And we are in for a rare treat. Because you can see some of the themes already as a wee boy when his mom gets locked up and he's sent to live with family. Quite a common thing back then as well. Yeah.

[00:31:56] And you can see where his attitude to women might have started being abandoned by your mother as he would see it as an infant being abandoned by his mother who went to prison, sentenced to five years, although she didn't serve the five. So there was an attitude towards women that pervaded his whole life, I think, and it was set in those very early years of his life. It was.

[00:32:19] And another thing he did, he learned to do very quickly because of his early conditioning was to manipulate the system. Yes. And that highly manipulative behaviour, that's Angus Sinclair, that's the world's end killer. That's what he learned to do. He learned to fit in and manipulate, particularly within disciplines, structures, borstals, prisons, things like that. He learned to fit in. Like you, Tom, I can't wait for the rest because the standard's been set here.

[00:32:48] There was laid a beautiful foundation for us to go on. And I was hanging on every word because it was information that I'd never been made aware of. It's the background information that we're always keen on here on Crime Time Inc. And I can't wait for episode two. Likewise, bring on episode two. Well done, Alec. Thanks, guys. Just a small point. My name is Alex, not Alec. Maybe, maybe just something in the Scottish accents. By the way, I love your accents.

[00:33:15] I hope you enjoy episode two on Sunday as much as you have enjoyed episode one. Talk soon. Goodbye. You've been listening to Crime Time Inc., where the investigation never truly ends. If you liked this episode, please listen to some more. And it would really help us if you left a comment on whatever platform you're listening to this on. Thank you. Our team respects the victims of these crimes and their families.

[00:33:43] This podcast is produced with the intention to educate and bring clarity to complex cases that have shaped our criminal justice system. Crime Time Inc. is hosted by former detectives Simon McClain and Tom Wood. And our research team verifies all case information presented in this series. Visit CrimeTimeInc.com for more information about us. Join us next time for another great true crime episode. Be sure to stay known for this episode. We'll see you next time.